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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#361

Post by karaterobot »

xenocratus wrote: post #332
karaterobot wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does my personal health information belong to my doctor? Not according to HIPAA, at least not in a way that gives the doctor control over selling it. While my pay is currently not protected by similar regulation, it seems like the kind of protection regulation similar to HIPAA could defensibly target.

Your personal health information is information that pertains to you and you only. Your compensation is part of a contract between yourself and your employer, hence why both parties have to sign it, and why both parties have ownership over it. Not arguing that payroll information can't be protected, my only point was that your comparison was off.

I'm not saying it is currently the case that I own my compensation number, I'm saying it's not impossible to imagine creating regulation to make that happen.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#362

Post by jmull »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #117
jmull wrote: post #112

Sharing compensation ranges may not be enough to qualify as wage fixing. It seems like there would have to be an agreement or at least a collective incentive to lower wages. While companies could use the data to ensure their offers are always below average (pushing wages down), they could also use the data to ensure their offers are above average, pushing wages up. Think about it: prices are transparent in most marke…

"at least a collective incentive to lower wages." ??? In accordance with HN guidelines I am going to resist giving a snarky answer and will instead clearly articulate: Companies clearly have a strong collective incentive to lower wages. "While companies could use the data to ensure their offers are always below average (pushing wages down), they could also use the data to ensure their offers are above average, pushin…

> Companies clearly have a strong collective incentive to lower wages.

Of course they all have an incentive to pay the lowest wages they can. I did not think we needed to state that.

But what I don't see here is a synchronizing mechanism. That is, what here will push companies to *collectively offer below average salaries on average* vs above average salaries on average?

> ...Collude to keep average wages low, so that when they offer outliers "above-average" it is still cheaper to cross that many standard deviations.

Yes, companies could collude. CEOs and HR managers of a range of companies in an area or industry could start an email chain, or conference call, or slack channel and commit to keeping their average offers at 45th percentile or lower. That's collusion, and illegal.

But is that what Pave is offering? What's the communication channel or other synchronization signal they are providing? A chat channel? Bonuses for companies that keep their average offers below average? Penalties for companies don't? IDK, perhaps there is some collusion mechanism they provide, but we should not just imagine there's one without a reason.

> The problem imo is less about transparency and more about information asymmetry.

Sure, yes. But that's something different than collusion to fix wages. That's an argument that we want organizations like Pave, but ones that will provide the same data to job seekers.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#363

Post by lxgr »

iav wrote: post #189
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax. That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on…

I am an investor in equifax. Let me clear up a misconception on where the data comes from. Half the data comes from large enterprise customers, who “sell” the data in exchange for Equifax doing I-9 verification for free. The other half comes from 39 payroll companies. Every single payroll company except for Rippling and Gusto sell paystub data to Euifax. (Rippling will start next year). Those are exclusive revenue sh…

> even if they opted out, your payroll company will sell it anyway

Surely that can't be legal?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#364

Post by soared »

gperkins978 wrote: post #252
Kon-Peki wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… and the usage? Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them. You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire. Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two. Try do…

This is also why certain homes get hit in high-end burglary crews. There are multiple crews hitting those who purchase precious metals with physical delivery (like gold American Eagle coins). It is not all positive. Considering how few victims even bother to report such crimes, it is terrifying. From what I understand from my cousin, a career criminal, there are entire theft rings working off of databases such as the…

What? Criminal gangs have access to databases of purchasers of jewelry and precious metals? Then they B+E, safecrack, and rob them? That’s an insane claim to make without any source besides your cousin.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#365

Post by akira2501 »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #214
dsr_ wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make an excellent argument here for tight regulation of the industry.

… and the usage? Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them. You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire. Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two. Try do…

You wonder why so many businesses are mean to you? It's because they've already looked you up and believe from the data that you won't be a good customer.

The dealership can also just call the bank to verify funds. Which would be reasonable and non-discriminatory all without needing a third party and wouldn't involve your salary at any level. Aside from this it's the financing company that cares, not the dealership, who only wants the car off their floor credit plan.

So what you're saying is it _shouldn't_ matter if you have money, because if you're a low income earner, you should be treated poorly, and you're happy to be personally invested in a system which creates this outcome.

It not only should be regulated but you should feel a little gross for saying any of this outloud.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#366

Post by jkaplowitz »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #266
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No thank you. I value my privacy and my negotiating ability more than I value a 'service' I didn't even ask for.

Nobody asked for it. But it’s part of the world we live in. And we’re all walking around oblivious to the advantages and disadvantages it gives us.

We shouldn't be oblivious to those advantages and disadvantages, since then we can't decide as a society whether those advantages and disadvantages should remain or be altered. That alone is a good reason to regulate this away.

Or at the very least, require Equifax to send free physical mail notifications to everyone when their data is accessed, stating when, by whom, why, and what answer was given. (Physical mail because there's no other predictable way for the general population.) Yes, I realize this would be financially unsustainable for Equifax as they currently operate, but that's their problem to solve. Even as someone who myself has excellent credit and many years of high income in my file, they're creepy and shouldn't be catered to at the expense of our privacy.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#367

Post by zelphirkalt »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #207
zelphirkalt wrote: post #46

Well, I wouldn't mind getting my wage fixed, if that works both ways, down _and up_, because then I would be guaranteed to never earn less than average for my skill and experience. Assuming, that those things of course factor into the averaging. Person X with experience Y in position Z. However, something tells me, that there is a tendency towards the downwards direction and none towards wage increase. (Background: I…

What stops senior devs in Germany from remote contracting for foreign companies that pay better?

Not everyone wants to be self-employed is at least one factor.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#368

Post by zaptheimpaler »

lantry wrote: post #54
elawler24 wrote: post #45

I got access to Pave through one of my investors. Seeing the data made us set salaries and contractor rates higher, not lower. It’s like salary banding at big companies. It’s a framework for how much other people are paid at the same level, not a contract. HR will make it seem like a rule, but if you do spectacular work - you can always negotiate. Collusion requires an agreement between rivals that negatively disrupt…

The market might be more transparent for the people who have access to pave, but for those who dont, the information asymmetry becomes worse.

I agree and as an employee I encourage everyone to take a second post their salaries on levels.fyi. We have our own compensation tool that is free & likely as good or better than Pave as long as people add their info.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#369

Post by UncleMeat »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #214
dsr_ wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make an excellent argument here for tight regulation of the industry.

… and the usage? Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them. You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire. Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two. Try do…

Fuck that.

"Oh, aren't you happy we live in a world where the rich are explicitly treated better because they carry around a big sign saying 'I am rich' when interacting with corporations?" No. I am not.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#370

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #126
atrettel wrote: post #115

I have never heard of Pave before, but this just sounds like yet another copy of Equifax's "The Work Number" [1]. Basically, HR at many companies gives your salary and employment history data to Equifax, who then sells access to the information to certain parties with supposed need to access it, including potential and current employers and creditors. This report is likely one of the most invasive consumer files out…

I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax. That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on…

22 states currently have salary history bans. You can save the trouble of jumping through Equifax's hoops if you have that protection.
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