Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#361

Post by kukkeliskuu » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

_popcornLurker wrote: post #207

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #148

What you have encountered is actually one of the necessary steps to really become "a senior developer". And congratulations, you have already passed the biggest part of that hurdle: becoming aware of the issue. There are things that are fragile, things that break when they encounter a shock. Such as porcelain, when transported. There are things that are non-fragile, things that do not break when they encounter a simi…

Uhm...I have to chime in here. "Anti-fragile attitude" when it comes to criticism is not built by tolerance. Quite the opposite actually. It is a common misconception. While making yourself numb against criticism IS a solution but not by far the best one. A high criticism tolerance is learned by understanding that ones self worth is not attached to output or delivery. (This is hard in our industry) It comes from self…

Good comment and I agree. I am in no way advocating becoming numb to criticism. The point is to create enough emotional distance to it so you are able to "swallow" it.

I think it is parents job to introduce small disappointments for children. This way they learn to handle larger disappointments. I think we need to teach ourselves to handle criticism in the same way, in small doses.

About not seeing it as criticism, I am not completely sure what you suggest. But I have analogy with improvisation theatre. There people celebrate mistakes, because fear of mistakes is what blocks you from improvising.

So instead of changing the name (to something else from "mistake") to overcome the fear, the fear is met head-first by celebrating mistakes. Similarly, I think the name "criticism" is not important, and if you can overcome the negative connotation for the word for you personally, there is no reason to change the word.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#362

Post by gymbeaux » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

_popcornLurker wrote: post #207

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #148

What you have encountered is actually one of the necessary steps to really become "a senior developer". And congratulations, you have already passed the biggest part of that hurdle: becoming aware of the issue. There are things that are fragile, things that break when they encounter a shock. Such as porcelain, when transported. There are things that are non-fragile, things that do not break when they encounter a simi…

Uhm...I have to chime in here. "Anti-fragile attitude" when it comes to criticism is not built by tolerance. Quite the opposite actually. It is a common misconception. While making yourself numb against criticism IS a solution but not by far the best one. A high criticism tolerance is learned by understanding that ones self worth is not attached to output or delivery. (This is hard in our industry) It comes from self…

My experience has been that people who say “you are not your code” use it as an excuse to be brash in PRs, and as someone who sees code as a sort of art, the adage is even less-appealing. Surely there is a way to be considerate enough in the code review process such that “you are not your code” need never be said at an organization.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#363

Post by 0x445442 » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #330

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #148

What you have encountered is actually one of the necessary steps to really become "a senior developer". And congratulations, you have already passed the biggest part of that hurdle: becoming aware of the issue. There are things that are fragile, things that break when they encounter a shock. Such as porcelain, when transported. There are things that are non-fragile, things that do not break when they encounter a simi…

On the other hand, in this industry often what one engineer identifies as a mistake another might be neutral toward or identify as a best practice/correct. Our industry doesn't have many standards, and it's not nearly as objective as some think. And often criticism isn't intended to improve an outcome: it's intended to bring others' in line with the critic's view of how it should be done. All this to say, I'd just ad…

Excellent response. By and large the field is a cargo cult where the members are particularly adept at constructing straw man and false equivalency arguments to support specific preferences which are not rooted in anything resembling objectivity. See "Clean Code".

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#364

Post by layer8 » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #320

lumb63 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard similar statements from other people, and I have a disconnect that prevents me from understanding. Why would someone want to detach their self worth from what they do? If someone ought not feel a negative emotion in response to doing something “bad”, by what logic can they justify feeling something positive in response to doing something “good”? I cannot conceive of a world view that allows one to feel pro…

Fundamentally, because we are still worth something even when our achievements are completely removed. If you take the view that our achievements are necessarily integral to our self worth this logically isn't true.

> we are still worth something even when our achievements are completely removed.

You can’t logically derive this from anything. It’s just a choice of how to see the world. “Worth” is inherently a subjective value judgement.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#365

Post by yoden » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

A lot of good comments here, here's one point I haven't seen: If you can, just respond tomorrow. Use the evening to exercise, visit friends, play trivia, etc. I find it can help you force your brain to see the comments as just one part of your whole life.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#366

Post by Taywee » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

I used to be the same way, but I've intentionally changed myself to fix it.

First, I don't treat my code as an extension of myself. My code is not me, and criticism of my code is not criticism of me.

I love a good solution, and I write good solutions, but all things created by humans are flawed, and therefore everything I make will be flawed. If somebody sees something I didn't, it's not because they're necessarily better than me (though they may be), but they have a different perspective. Often, it's something I would have seen if I was in their position and not so close to the code myself.

And because of this love for a good solution, I've trained myself to have a love for good criticism. Every piece of criticism is an opportunity. You are not perfect. You have room to grow and always will. Criticism is potentially a door to this room for growth.

Just internalize the mantra of self improvement. "I was wrong" is a wonderful thing. It means the same thing as "next time, I will be right".

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#367

Post by roeles » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

> I see this as one of my major flaws and try hard to mask how I feel.

It's not a flaw. You're learning. Don't judge the sapling as if it's a full grown tree. For me, acknowledging my "bad" feelings was the thing that helped me deal with them constructively the most.

Even better, talk about them with peers you feel safe with. Say "your comment brings up feelings of... In me." instead of "you make me feel...". With the right person, that's a doorway into mutual understanding and reframig the experience for yourself.

Everybody has these feelings, you'll find out.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#368

Post by ghaberek » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

> I've come to realize that I often take constructive criticisms personally.

Somebody once told me, "never fall in love with your ideas." Because you are not your ideas. You are not the things you create. Your work and your creations exist outside of you and they can receive criticism without it being targeted at you personally.

> Everything from an unintentionally snarky comment in a PR I've made to someone highlight a mistake I’ve made that I probably couldn't have known about.

When someone points at your work and says "this is bad" they are not pointing at you and saying "you are bad" are they? And if they are attacking you directly, and not your work, that seems more like a problem with them than it does you.

> I see this as one of my major flaws and try hard to mask how I feel. But I just hope to learn to stop feeling bad for honest mistakes.

Feeling your feelings is not a flaw. Wanting to stop feeling bad is worthwhile, but many people accomplish it by becoming calloused and cynical. They stop caring about what they do and both they and their work suffer accordingly.

Focus instead on separating your feelings about yourself from your feelings about your work. Be critical of the things you're doing. Acknowledge where things aren't great but you're trying to do better and nothing can be perfect.

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#369

Post by lexicality » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #359

_popcornLurker wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm...I have to chime in here. "Anti-fragile attitude" when it comes to criticism is not built by tolerance. Quite the opposite actually. It is a common misconception. While making yourself numb against criticism IS a solution but not by far the best one. A high criticism tolerance is learned by understanding that ones self worth is not attached to output or delivery. (This is hard in our industry) It comes from self…

> You are not your lines of code. I think you actually are, in a very real sense. Someone else would have written different lines of codes. The lines of code are a function of yourself, an inherent part of you. Criticizing the lines of code criticizes that part of you. You can’t criticize a novel without implicitly criticizing its author. When we criticize an LLM’s output, we are typically criticizing the LLM. Percei…

> I think you actually are, in a very real sense. Someone else would have written different lines of codes. The lines of code are a function of yourself, an inherent part of you. Criticizing the lines of code criticizes that part of you. You can’t criticize a novel without implicitly criticizing its author. When we criticize an LMM’s output, we are typically criticizing the LLM. Perceiving criticism of one’s own work as something personal is only natural, and logical.

I disagree on the strongest terms. You need to work with a mindset to your own growth an evolution. It was me who wrote these lines of code an hour ago, but I would not have known to write them a year ago and I will know better than to write them like this in another year's time. Possibly I wouldn't even write them like that now, having thought about them for an hour.

I am not a perfect coder, some Omnipotent god. Everything I write is a tradeoff of my current set of knowledge and the pressures I'm under and is therefore inherently flawed.

If someone criticise my code it's because they either know more than me, in which case I have learned why I shouldn't have done that and will adapt for the future, or it's because they know less than me and I haven't clearly explained the tradeoffs in which case I have learned that I need to express myself more clearly and will adapt that for the future.

(Of course it might just be because they didn't bother to read my commit message but that's a different problem)

Re: Ask HN: How do you not take criticism of your work personally?

#370

Post by sgtnoodle » Thu, May 25, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

ericyd wrote: post #356

sgtnoodle wrote: post #337

My suggestion is to do more design work up front before touching code. Write up a plan in a drive document or an internal wiki tool, with a focus on capturing requirements, a high level description of your proposed solution, and detailed sections on the portions you anticipate to be complicated, controversial, or risky. Also include an "alternatives" section where you very briefly summarize technical approaches that…

Respectfully, I don't think this addresses the author's question. They asked for help receiving criticism. Your response is focused on better engineering practices, with the goal of reducing mistakes. I don't think that is what they are asking for

I think you missed my point then. The goal isn't to reduce mistakes, although that is often a secondary benefit. My suggestion was to shift work habits to a form where they have ownership of design rather than ownership of code. Also, a key point was to front-load criticism to early in the development process rather than toward the end.