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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#361
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

I don't have direct experience, but IIRC it's much more difficult to fire someone in Germany than in Ireland. Having a concept of at-will employment that is closer to the US version would be a good reason to pay more in Ireland than Germany.

Not sure where you picked up this information, but it's also very difficult to fire an employee in Ireland. About the same level of difficulty as in Germany (once past your probation period, that is).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#362
post #260

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

Came exactly here to say this. Because of WFH im able to have a awesome job and see my family living in other countries and also my parents at home much more frequently now. If you want to work in an office you can do that it’s your choice. Many people also have young kids and two working parents making the WFH flexibility ideal. Lots of reasons for WFH exist but they don’t matter. If you do your job and the company…

The issue is that I don't just want to work from the office, I want to work from the office along with my coworkers. Sitting there alone is only marginally better than work from home. In the end we just need to self select into companies that follow our desired "work from" policies, it's just tough now since the pandemic made every company temporarily WFH so some workers need to swap as companies change back.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#363

There's nothing controversial. You like working in an office. Cool. Go work in an office. I don't like working in an office. Cool. I work from home. The only thing that's changed is that we have more choice now. Like when I finally landed the first job where I didn't have to wear a tie anymore.

The problem for us office advocates is that you travel into an empty office and sit on Zoom calls anyway. Of course we shouldn't drag you into the office just to appease us, but the experience of working together is effectively not available right now.

You could join a company that is in person first. I've joined a company that is remote first for their tech team and in person first for their non tech teams.

It works great. If I wanted to work in person I know a dozen companies that want that are willing to offer than. Just like I know a dozen companies that offer a slew of other factors I may or may not care for.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#364
> the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. But are those really the majority? I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. Mostly, because it takes so much grit and persistence to get good at it that most people wouldn't succeed unless they see something in it beyond putting food on the table.

Tech also attracts a disproportionate number of introverts who would rather work by themselves then interact with other people. Have you considered that maybe people want to work from home because it allows them to focus on their work better? That they do love what they do, but the social interaction and noises in the office distract them from that?

> Have I been under some weird form of Stockholm Syndrom where I actually enjoyed something that was pure torture to most?

No, of course not. But just because something is enjoyable to you doesn't mean it isn't torture for someone else.

> Have a lot of people realized they don't actually like being among other people, apart from their closest friends and family?

Yes. There are a lot of people like that. It's called being an introvert. And for many, including myself, it isn't some sudden realization, we have just had to endure going to the office because that is the way the world worked. But the normalization of WFH finally allowed us to work in an environment that is better for us.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I have some sort of Office-PTSD or something, but I make it very clear to my coworkers that we can be friendly, but we aren't friends. You don't need my cellphone number, we don't need to go grab drinks after work, etc.. I've just noticed that if you turn your back for a second, then out come the wolves. Less coffee pot talk the better as far as I am concerned. I have my friends and life outside of work, and I…

Yup. So much this. I'm friendly with folks at work. I'm not friends with people at work. Maybe some people truly are but I suspect most people who think their coworkers are friends are pretending like that friendship wont go away rapidly when one of them no longer works for the company. So much of OPs post is trying to get from coworkers what many get from friends.

Some of the best friends and mentors I've made in life have been through my career. I still talk to friends from jobs that I left over a decade ago.

That's bizarre to me to have an explicit attitude of not befriending colleagues. It's never been something I've specifically sought out, it's always organically come to be -- but it's not something I would actively work against. I don't understand the benefit to that mindset.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#366

Most of my distaste for WFO comes from two places: - the USA's failure to provide even a single city that's pleasant to live in and travel around without a car - tech company insistence on open office layouts that are not conducive to deep work The first one sounds like a commute problem... but it manifests in more ways than you think. When you have to travel around in a car, everything is expensive. Parking is a pai…

Boston/Cambridge and NYC come to mind as cities where one can avoid having a car. Are there others that save sufficient public transport, housing and support buildings that should be considered. In Canada, Montreal fits that description. I’ve not lived in or talked to enough people from Toronto or Vancouver to know how liveable they are on foot.

Open offices are a plague. Any company using them is interested in reduced real estate costs and having a younger staff. They’re not interested in productivity or quality of work.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#367

> I know that "the office" is a bad place for a lot of people. There's certainly a number of us where 'work from office' (WFO) really means share a vast open plan area with people and all their annoying habits. That's why I don't want to go back. And that's why others don't want to go back. I believe the whole "I'm an introvert" thing to be mostly false for a lot of people for the reason above. I don't mind socialisi…

A lot of other people have the opposite problem: even an open-plan office is significantly quieter and easier to think in than in your own apartment with your kids around.

Agreed. I'm fortunate that I have a room that I can work in and close the door.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#368
I recognize what you're saying and I miss that part of office life a bit too.

But not having the commute, and thus having over two hours per day that I can spend on more sleep, more time with my family and more time to work, that's just better.

And not having to deal with a noisy open plan office comes on top of that.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#369

Most of my distaste for WFO comes from two places: - the USA's failure to provide even a single city that's pleasant to live in and travel around without a car - tech company insistence on open office layouts that are not conducive to deep work The first one sounds like a commute problem... but it manifests in more ways than you think. When you have to travel around in a car, everything is expensive. Parking is a pai…

Check out Boston/Brookline, I have a car to go see family / go north for nature but rarely use it!

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#370
It may be a (over?)reaction to the generally poor working conditions in an office that suddenly do not exist when working at home. No manager passing by and disrupting your focus, no commute nightmare, no open space with distractions all around, no being physically captive when you are out of juice,... At home you are less constrained, and some people will value this freedom higher than the loss of social bond.

I'm in the hybrid camp: most of the time at home, then one or two days at the office to catch up, attend the important meetings/workshops in person, and debate about the new tech du jour. These days at the office feel much more like an offsite than a regular day at work and I look forward to seeing my colleagues. Obviously, the daily productivity takes a hit but I'm certain that the weekly productivity is better than either full remote or full office.

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