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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#361
As I've been more in leadership positions over the years, this has been one of my challenges. We all have unproductive days (weeks?). What's interesting: I now work at a company that relies on hard work. I work in product development with significant software component, DSP and other specialties. When one team member does not deliver their part, the whole product is delayed and it becomes very visible. On the other hand, given that most of the stuff we do is new/unique, it is hard to see how much time a task "should" take. Sadly, people ocassionally hide behind this. One recent extreme example: We've hired a supposed senior "gun" that has been in the industry for 20+ years. Then he subsequently failed to deliver basic piece of software in 6 months. After some discussions with him, we realized he lacked even basic fundamentals. Our failing was that we didn't pick up on this during the hiring process. Anyway, someone else had to take over and complete it in a few weeks. This "senior gun" has been bullshitting his way through decades of career.. Btw, the companies that he worked for are failing (or failed already), so there's that indicator. My point is - developer's productivity can have a huge impact, depending on what the business is. I would hate to be working in a job where my work (or lack of) has no impact..

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#362

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

" This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. " It's definitely not acceptable. It's a form of White Collar / 1st World Corruption. Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud. Just because we don't always have great oversight, does not abnegate our responsibilities towards trying to do a good job. This notion of 'I Can Get Away With It' and '…

I feel like you ignored most of the original post and are just injecting your own preconceived notions.

> Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value

If the employers in question felt that they weren't getting what they were paying for, they would tell the original poster that they were performing below expectations. According to the original poster, that has not happened, and their employers have never expressed dissatisfaction with their productivity.

> This is unreasonable populism: "Pay me, trust me, but I'm going to do nothing, and if you lay me off over Zoom, you're going to see it on CNN!"

Nobody's "doing nothing"; as established above, the employee in question is doing more than enough work to satisfy their employers. What does "you're going to see it on CNN" mean — are you talking about "cancel culture"? How is populism involved with this, and what on Earth do you think populism is if you think that your bizarre strawman is representative of it?

I'm not one to argue that politics should be considered as separate from our personal lives, but you're throwing around emotionally- and politically-loaded ideas like populism, cancel culture, and "white collar first-world corruption" in a discussion where they bear no relevance.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#363
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a quantification for the value you are obligated to provide your company written down in your employment contract? If not, on what basis are you throwing around words like "crime" and "fraud"?

It's Fraud when there is payment for services not rendered. The problem arises when there's little ability for oversight, which implies a high degree of trust in the system and the mechanism for verification can't be there. Put another way: If someone pays you $50 to fill their tires up with air, it's Fraud if you don't do it - irrespective of your customer's ability or willingness to verify. If your customer was bus…

You are missing the core part of the question. You say it is fraud when you aren't delivering what was agreed upon – fine, that could be the case. But what were you hired to deliver exactly? Is that written down somewhere? Forget management, can you yourself judge in some objective way whether you are committing fraud at work or not?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#364

I'm literally about to get fired from Google for this, possibly today (HR is calling wondering where I am). Dumb thing is, I've been working like crazy on my 20% project. I just can't stand the other one, got an NI on my first (and presumably last) review cycle so pretty much killed any chance of a transfer. I've never outright lied, though certainly hemmed and hawed. And occasionally blatantly "I haven't done anythi…

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

>Why work more? I founded a company and we were successful, but we really tried to continue the momentum. We had a group of 7-10 engineers, built over time and strenuously recruited and managed. And we have plateaued over the past 5 years. Now looking back I realized that probably a lot of the engineers had an attitude similar to what you describe. So they really ended up damaging their co-workers, because less growt…

What changed? Did your employees simply reach the cliff of their stock options?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#366
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is to embrace minimalism / the FIRE lifestyle and hopefully skate by long enough to not have to work by the time the company folds and live off of investments -> then into retirement). I think most "underwork" on the job is a motivational issue and stems from one of a few overlapping reasons: 1) No way to promotion/advancement (dead end job) 2) Overqualified and bored 3) Unclear goals, no feedback, an…

I've read about the FIRE theory time and again. For some reason, I don't buy it. I fail to believe in the plan that consists in building enough FU money to then "be free". Free to do what? What was the plan originally? I think the real meaning of life is to do what you care about today, _with the constraints you have today_.

Being free might mean that you take a traditional full-time job, if doing so is the best way to "do what you care about today". But the great thing is that you can take that job without all the normal financial stress that goes with it, and with the knowledge that you can just quit if you don't like it or end up with a bad manager.

Aside from that, though, I really think you should step back and try to reexamine "life". Why does life have to revolve around "work"? Why do people define themselves by what they do professionally? The world is very rich, and I personally don't find it very hard to find meaning outside of a job (traditional or otherwise).

I get that a lot of people who go the traditional route end up retiring at 65 or whatever, and then have no idea what to do with themselves for the rest of their lives, and that adding another 10, 20, or more years to that retirement period sounds scary. I think of this as a result of societal brainwashing. From a young age we're asked what we want to do when we grow up, and then during much of our teens we are pushed hard to pick a university, pick a major, and pick a career. And this is right while our brains are still developing; the focus on employment fundamentally affects the shape of our minds for the rest of our lives.

Free to do what, you ask? Literally anything. Learn how to play an instrument, join or form a local band, and play at coffee shops, bars, whatever. Learn new languages and travel (or just travel!). Get involved with your community, whether that's youth outreach, volunteering to help homeless people, or whatever you like. If you're a software developer, get involved with (or start your own) open source projects. Attack that ever-growing stack of books you keep telling yourself you're going to read but never seem to find the time. Find and grow new hobbies, whatever they may be, especially those that have nothing to do with your former job. Commit to improving your physical fitness by doing something (running, lifting, a martial art, etc.) for a certain number of hours per week. Go back to school and learn things you thought were too impractical to make a living off of back when you were 18. If you're a parent, you can spend a ton more time with your kids (raising a child is more than a full-time job anyway).

There is enough in this world to fill multiple lifetimes, and restricting yourself to spending 40 hours a day drawing a paycheck is a very small part of the possibilities. Relying on a job to define ourselves and fill our time is the easy way out because it "automatically" takes up half of our waking hours (or more). I get that it can feel like a daunting task to figure out what to do with all that extra time, but I can't believe it wouldn't be worth it to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#367
I would suggest maybe step back and think about a point in your career where you really felt challenged and inspired. I've definitely had periods where I felt similar, but was generally because I was just bored and didn't feel any connection to the work I was doing. So many of us attach so much of our identities to the work we do. And if the work we do isn't meaningful then we end up in thought processes like yours.

The fact that you are really looking inward and thinking about this is super positive by the way, because without that things will never change.

Think about what it is you really want to achieve and find a job that gives you a sense of ownership and pride.

You got this!

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#368
Most of my career I have been dedicated and worked seriously, but never over-worked for any extended period of time. I think I might be just a bit above average compared to co-workers in terms of amount of work done.

However sometimes I have been unable to produce almost anything for maybe 2-6 weeks. I was scared to be discovered and blamed. To my surprised it never happened. Most of the time I have been able to bullshit my way through it. Only once it clearly was discovered I did not do my job. Not even started actually. A manager asked a coworker to help me on my task, which was a bit of shaming for me, but not too bad either. I was a contractor and some time ago the company offered me a position (which i declined). So I do not think this had any consequences.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#369
post #75
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

Large companies have a tendency to throw up all sorts of impediments to actually getting shit done. Simple tasks can take 3 weeks because there are 7-9 dependencies throwing sand in the gears. This not only provides plenty of cover for not getting stuff done it also saps the motivation to get it done quickly. Like, if X team sits on your request for a week that prevents Y feature from getting out are you really gonna…

the startup i just left did this. they have about 300 employees, and are pre revenue. the process to add a field to an api response was incredibly tedious and sapped my motivation completely.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#370

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

> Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life. Well, I love programming. I’d just rather work on my own personal projects than the boring stuff the business wants me to work on. Fortunately I can get done what the company wants me to do in a few hours a day and then write code for my own projects.

One thing I've found helpful to combat boredom is this: In the absence of deadlines or people nagging you to do something, pick the task you want to do most (or dislike the least), or the task that is most interesting rather than the task that's oldest or some other measure. That way, you're still chipping away at your to-do list, but you're happier to do it.
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