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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#361

Post by hummingurban »

They don't call it junior devs but "university grads".

Allegedly EA has found that the latter is cheaper and just as good as senior devs. Not sure what that implies but it is EA after all.

Then you have piece of shit companies in Vancouver, BC that pays about what a Seattle starbucks barista makes, mostly UBC and SFU students.

I've given up largely on the industry after spending two decades. What is happening is beyond commoditization of technical laborer, we are probably going to see high school kids among the workforce.

It's insane to ask people to commute 4 hours a day, do mundane unimportant tasks that managers who got where they are not out of merit but due to seniority, people stay behind long after 9-5 because they are afraid of getting fired, and then going home only to briefly eat dinner and sleep, to start the nightmare over and over and over again.

At least in feudalism days, you grew your own shit and didn't have to pay 1/50 of your earnings on an unhealthy fast food because the foreigners and criminals have laundered their money through the real estate and businesses have to raise their cost.

tldr: software is getting complex yet barrier to entry are none, expect shit.

/rant

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#362

Post by sysdumb »

One person that knows what they are doing is better than a hundred who don't. Junior devs out there, keep learning and keep getting better. You will have to get used to that anyways as development is a never ending treadmill of self-learning and improvement. But it's better to have zero devs messing up the code and forcing new opinions on the development process. As they say, cut your teeth somewhere else.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#363

Post by davedx »

Not here in the Netherlands at least... the last three companies I've worked at have all hired junior developers, though it tends to be done once a team has already been built up from more senior people and the way of working/team cohesion has stabilized a bit.

What kind of companies are you applying for? If you want, you could send me your CV and I can have a look over it, I've been involved in hiring said junior devs before and maybe I can offer some feedback. davedx@gmail.com

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#364

Post by isostatic »

hummingurban wrote: post #361

They don't call it junior devs but "university grads". Allegedly EA has found that the latter is cheaper and just as good as senior devs. Not sure what that implies but it is EA after all. Then you have piece of shit companies in Vancouver, BC that pays about what a Seattle starbucks barista makes, mostly UBC and SFU students. I've given up largely on the industry after spending two decades. What is happening is beyo…

> they won't raise salary.

Not while they can employ people at the salary they're offering

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#365

Post by ashelmire »

jcadam wrote: post #360

> To further stack up the frustration, it's not uncommon to see the same position listed and re-listed on LinkedIn and Indeed for months: certainly somebody could have been hired and trained to the level needed in that time. There are a lot of companies that aren't serious about hiring. They post jobs, conduct a few interviews, but never actually hire anyone to fill a position. My guess is that they think it's a good…

I think there’s another complication here, which is that companies will list a position once even though they are hiring several people.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#366

Post by Bombthecat »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Can't you make a binding / contract? My company did that with me. Basically forbidding me to quit for 12 months.

Ways you can do it in germany: hire. After 2 or 3 months to see if he is a good fit. Give him a bonus to stay. The contract allows you for up to two years without issues, maybe three. If he quits earlier. He must pay back the bonus back (Valles Heilung des bonus in german, healing 9f bonus) after a few months he won't have a chance to get something better.

You also can increase the salary in a bonus. Which he eeds to payback if he wants to leave early.

Is that not possible in America?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#367

Post by blablabla123 »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

> once the junior dev is trained, they will leave.

But this is exactly not how it works. The only job I stayed 3 years where I had gaps, told them in advance, and learned.

Where would you rather stay: the job where there is no learning curve or where you can learn something new?

I think the reason is that decision makers want to minimize all their risk, being okay if the employees manage a fair amount of all the risk.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#368

Post by pier25 »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Rise their pay when they become competent

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#369

Post by richrichardsson »

kurnikas wrote: post #308
ryanobjc wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact in the good big companies, they crave for employee growth. Time and money for training, meaningful career growth, and pay growth, major tech switches without changing jobs. I find that small companies are often much worse in all these metrics. As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect - your friend, the cofounder, has that job. And is never giving it up. Plus thanks to cash crunch, making shortcu…

> As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect This is so important, as a relativley junior developer at a 6 person web dev shop, the owner is the only other backend developer. I have no room for climbing, even if I get a job title upgrade or a raise, my responsibilities and the level I work at won't change. I will handle the day to day backend and the owner works on strategic choices. There is only so much…

> There is only so much impact I can make in this position

I'm reminded of this talk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hER0Qp6QJNU around the 8m30 mark is the pertinent point, but worth to watch before that to get where his point is coming from.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#370

Post by hummingurban »

isostatic wrote: post #364
hummingurban wrote: post #361

They don't call it junior devs but "university grads". Allegedly EA has found that the latter is cheaper and just as good as senior devs. Not sure what that implies but it is EA after all. Then you have piece of shit companies in Vancouver, BC that pays about what a Seattle starbucks barista makes, mostly UBC and SFU students. I've given up largely on the industry after spending two decades. What is happening is beyo…

> they won't raise salary. Not while they can employ people at the salary they're offering

^ this. the fact that some people can be pre-IPO yet hire mostly students who work for nothing, get all pissy when people ask for a raise for staying past 5 consistently, and to boot, writing fake glassdoor reviews because you can't hire actual engineers anymore due to the bad rep you built.

I don't know what kind of people would entrust their companies HR data to an organization run like a sweat shop.

When you walk in and see mostly Asian workforce, head for the exit. I've seen consistently again and again, immigrant hires who are used to working 8am~10pm in their country now bringing the same fucked up neo-confucian work ethics.

God I hate Vancouver. What irritates me is that criminals and drug dealers who have successfully laundered their money through the real estate are now venture capitalists, now seeing their net worth explode. Did time for moving drugs? Hey now you are a CEO of a crypto company. Used to be a serial killer for a gang? Now investing in local startups, calls himself VC lol.

I hate this corrupt ass backward world sometimes. I've lost faith. No. Fuck this, this isn't why I came to Canada, to be a glorified white collar slave. Sure as shit not going to be blue collar so what does that leave me? When society rewards and protects criminals and punishes those who play by the rules out of humane morals? What does this leave me with?

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