> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…
What is IC? Google tells me Interstitial Cystitis, but my hunch tells me it's something else.
Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
341–350 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody is being defrauded. It is at-will employment. If the employer is still willing to employ the dev working this much, everything is well above board. At-will cuts a lot harder both ways when it's remote work ;)
'At will' has noting to do with it. When payment is made for services not rendered, it's Fraud. If the employer has expectations that the employee 'does nothing' then it's fine, but that's almost assuredly not the case. This posture is not only toxic, but it's also unjust will spread into much greater malaise as others take up the mantle of 'doing nothing'. Literally a colleague I had over for dinner last night left…
Surely if this was actual Fraud he should be filling a police report or lawsuit?
Surely the all-knowing free market should punish companies that pay people to do nothing with its3 all powerfull invisible hand?
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#343Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…
> You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you Low output engineers can often coast for years before something forces them back on to the job market. Usually, routine layoffs force companies to take a hard look at who's producing and who's not, at which point the lowest productivity individuals are the most likely to be cut. This i…
Early in my career, I was in a big organization, surrounded by people like this. Our direct manager was not competent to assess their work output on any technical level. He might not have cared anyway, since the true measure of management is how large your pool of subordinates is.
It was truly soul-sucking to be surrounded by such mediocrity. I'm all for work-life balance, but having counterparts who accomplish so little is demoralizing.
I can almost convince myself that there's a strategy in it -- with 15 people doing the work of 3 people, a very large bus accident will probably have very little impact on business operations.
It killed me though. I left and went into consulting for a few years. Then startups, where 3 people are expected to do the work of 15. Which can be its own problem, of course!
The aforementioned co-workers? Still at the same place, and honestly they're probably pretty safe (financial industry, revenue is barely affected by macro economy). Goodness help them if they ever need a new job.
EDIT: Nowadays, I hire and manage people. My expectation of the team is to be "productive" about 20hrs/wk, ebbing and flowing according to personal life flux, but making an honest attempt to give the rest of us enough to rely on.
I hope to hire the kinds of people who will use some part of the remaining time to reflect on how to improve something, somewhere -- sometimes including our work product or processes. This is where the interesting stuff happens, when it does.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
" This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. " It's definitely not acceptable. It's a form of White Collar / 1st World Corruption. Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud. Just because we don't always have great oversight, does not abnegate our responsibilities towards trying to do a good job. This notion of 'I Can Get Away With It' and '…
Is there a quantification for the value you are obligated to provide your company written down in your employment contract? If not, on what basis are you throwing around words like "crime" and "fraud"?
The problem arises when there's little ability for oversight, which implies a high degree of trust in the system and the mechanism for verification can't be there.
Put another way:
If someone pays you $50 to fill their tires up with air, it's Fraud if you don't do it - irrespective of your customer's ability or willingness to verify.
If your customer was busy on the phone, or with their children, would it be 'Perfect Contractually Acceptable' to not fill their tires up with air 'Because You Can?'?
Either legally or morally - no - it's fraud.
Fortunately, most tasks involve a kind of implicit oversight - i.e. 'you know when your tires were not filled'.
In software, the mechanisms for oversight aren't so great - but that should be fine with all of us to the extent that we're professionals - we don't want Management breathing down our necks anyhow. But the inherent level of trust implies a higher degree of professional competence on the part of all of us.
FYI - this is assuming that there is a problem with oversight. If the OP is doing some 'genius 2 hours a week', the company knows it, is fine paying $150K for that bit of work, that's totally fine.
It's disturbing that this is even a discussion.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#345I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…
Well, I love programming. I’d just rather work on my own personal projects than the boring stuff the business wants me to work on. Fortunately I can get done what the company wants me to do in a few hours a day and then write code for my own projects.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.
I think many doctors work much more than that (60-80 hours each week) for pretty much their entire careers.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#347Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…
It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#348Imagine a security guard at an office building. 90% of the time might be sitting in a booth watching monitors. The other 10% of the time is buzzing people in or making rounds. But that 90% of the time when they are sitting around is important, since they are on call. So you are like a security guard. Your employer gladly pays you for the 90% of the time you are doing nothing, because they need the comfort of having a…
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…
I could be completely wrong on this, but I think there's a bit of positive punishment at work. If you do something quickly, and it is of high quality, it will probably get noticed, and your reward in addition to a sense of satisfaction, is more work. The satisfaction high won't override the punishment of more work, although salary will. However, salaried employees don't get paid more to do more work (bonus notwithsta…
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#350If you don't go to management, it's probably worth doing another 5 hours of Leetcode each week. Regardless of how much work you do, the career lifespan at most companies is less than ten years. So you will have to prove you are a coder 4-5 times in your life, and probably at least once when you are over 50.