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Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

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331–340 of 640 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and Apple poured a tonne of that money into R&D and taking the top engineers from Intel, AMD, and ARM, building one of the best silicon teams. how much silicon did Apple actually create? I thought they outsourced all the components?

Apple bought PA Semi a long time ago. They have a significant silicon development group. Their architecture license (they were an early investor in ARM) for ARM means they get to basically do whatever they want using the ARM ISA. The SoCs in pretty much all their devices are designed in-house.

what about all the components and sensors

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#332

Battery efficiency comes from a million little optimizations in the technology stack, most of which comes down to using the CPU as little as possible. As such the instruction set architecture and process node aren't usually that important when it comes to your battery life. If you fully load the CPU and calculate how much energy a AI340 needs to perform a fixed workload and compare that to a M1 you'll probably find s…

Hell, Apple CPU's are even optimized for Apple software GC calls like Retain/Release objects. It seems if you want optimal performance and power efficiency, you need to own both hardware and software. Looks like general purpose CPUs are on the losing train. Maybe Intel should invent desktop+mobile OS and design bespoke chips for those.

> Apple CPU's are even optimized for Apple software GC calls like Retain/Release objects.

I assume this is referring to the tweet from the launch of the M1 showing off that retaining and releasing an NSObject is like 3x faster. That's more of a general case of the ARM ISA being a better fit for modern software than x86, not some specific optimization for Apple's software.

x86 was designed long before desktops had multi-core processors and out-of-order execution, so for backwards compatibility reasons the architecture severely restricts how the processor is allowed to reorder memory operations. ARM was designed later, and requires software to explicitly request synchronization of memory operations where it's needed, which is much more performant and a closer match for the expectations of modern software, particularly post-C/C++11 (which have a weak memory model at the language level).

Reference counting operations are simple atomic increments and decrements, and when your software uses these operations heavily (like Apple's does), it can benefit significantly from running on hardware with a weak memory model.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#333
post #241

I don't think a fan spinning is negative. The cooling is functioning effectively. Apple often lets the device throttle before it turns on the fans for "better ux" linux plays no such mind games.

The way the notebooks are built allow for passive cooling, fans are actually quieter and the CPUs run colder at same workloads as proven by cinebench per watt test. It's not just a simple thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#334
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the more relevant case for laptops is macOS, which is heavily optimized for battery life and power draw in ways that Linux just isn't, neither is Windows. A lot of the problems here can't actually be fixed by intel, amd, or anyone designing x86 laptops because getting that level of efficiency requires the ability to strongly lead the app developer community. It also requires highly competent operating system deve…

If x86 just officially said “we’re cutting off 32-bit legacy” one day (similar to how Apple did), they could toss out 95% of the crap that makes them power inefficient. Just think of the difference dropping A10 offered for memory efficiency. “Modern Standby” could be made to actually work, ACPI states could be fixed, a functional wake-up state built anew, etc. Hell, while it would allow pared down CPUs, you could hav…

>If x86 just officially said “we’re cutting off 32-bit legacy” one day (similar to how Apple did), they could toss out 95% of the crap that makes them power inefficient.

Where do you get this from? I could understand that they could get rid of the die area devoted to x86 decoding, but as I understand it x86 and x86-64 instructions get interpreted by the same execution units, which are bitness blind. What makes you think it's x86 support that's responsible for the vast majority of power inefficiency in x86-64 processors?

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#335
>My daily workhorse is a M1 Pro that I purchased on release date, It has been one of the best tech purchases I have made

Same, I just realized it's three years old, I've used every day for hours and it still feels like the first day I got it.

They truly revindicated on this as their laptops were getting worse and worse and worse (keyboard fiasco, touchbar, ...).

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#336

There’s a number of reasons, all of which in concert create the appearance of a performance gap between the two: * Apple has had decades optimizing its software and hardware stacks to the demands of its majority users, whereas Intel and AMD have to optimize for a much broader scope of use cases. * Apple was willing to throw out legacy support on a regular basis. Intel and AMD, by comparison, are still expected to run…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#337
On my ryzen laptop, i have to manually ensure that Linux is setting the right power settings. Once i do that, my 5950HS laptop from 2022 is completely competitive with my work MacBook M2. Louder and hotter at full tilt, but it also has a better GPU (even with the onboard Nvidia turned off) and i can get ~6 hours of web dev out of it if I'm not constantly churning tons of files.

I would try it with Windows for a better comparison, or get into the weeds of getting Linux to handle the ryzen platform power settings better.

With Ubuntu properly managing fans and temps and clocks, I'll take it over the Mac 10/10 times.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#338

That's a Chrome problem, especially on extra powerful processors like Strix Halo. Apple is very strict about power consumption in the development of Safari, but Chrome is designed to make use of all unallocated resources. This works great on a desktop computer, making it faster than Safari, but the difference isn't that significant and it results in a lot of power draw on mobile platforms. Many simple web sites will…

AFAICT the comparisons to safari are no longer true https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-ma... That might be different on other platforms

I can't vouch for Chrome and Safari themselves, but I can between Thorium and Falkon, because I regularly suspend Thorium and open the same page with Falkon, and watch the CPU usage graph drop from pegging a core to almost nothing.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#339

There’s a number of reasons, all of which in concert create the appearance of a performance gap between the two: * Apple has had decades optimizing its software and hardware stacks to the demands of its majority users, whereas Intel and AMD have to optimize for a much broader scope of use cases. * Apple was willing to throw out legacy support on a regular basis. Intel and AMD, by comparison, are still expected to run…

Fair enough, but Apple Silicon is not a specialist chip in the way a SPARC chip was. It's a general purpose SoC & SiP stack. There is nothing stopping Intel being able to invest in SoC & SiP and being able to maintain backward compatibility while providing much better power/performance for a mobile (including laptop and tablet), product strategy.

They could also just sit down with Microsoft and say "Right, we're going to go in an entirely different direction, and provide you with something absolutely mind-blowing, but we're going to have to do software emulation for backward compatibility and that will suck for a while until things get recompiled, or it'll suck forever if they never do".

Apple did this twice in the last 20 years - once on the move from PowerPC chips to Intel, and again from Intel to Apple Silicon.

If Microsoft and enough large OEMs (Dell, etc.), thought there was enough juice in the new proposed architecture to cause a major redevelopment of everything from mobile to data centre level compute, they'd line right up, because they know that if you can significantly reduce the amount of power consumption while smashing benchmarks, there are going to long, long wait times for that hardware and software, and its pay day for everyone.

We now know so much more about processor design, instruction set and compiler design than we did when the x86 was shaping up, it seems obvious to me that:

1. RISC is a proven entity worth investing in

2. SoC & SiP is a proven entity worth investing in

3. Customers love better power/performance curves at every level from the device in their pocket to the racks in data centres

4. Intel is in real trouble if they are seriously considering the US government owning actual equity, albeit proposed as non-voting, non-controlling

Intel can keep the x86 line around if they want, but their R&D needs to be chasing where the market is heading - and fast - while bringing the rest of the chain along with them.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#340
The M4 I have lets me run GPT-OSS-20B on my Mac, and its surprisingly responsive. I was able to get LM Studio to even run a web API for it, which Zed detected. I'm pleasantly surprised by how powerful it is. My gaming with with a 3080 cannot even run the same LLM model (not enough VRAM).
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