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Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

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Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#331

Post by maximinus_thrax »

cactusplant7374 wrote: post #325
maximinus_thrax wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At times? It's a cesspool of negativity and lies. Good content is the exception on Blind. Deleting that app is one of the best things someone can do for their mental health.

They are discussing this thread here: https://www.teamblind.com/post/The-Hacker-News-community-vie... Partial archive: https://archive.ph/npoh6 As you would expect, it's horrible. The moderation is quite bad too. They'll ban you for just saying you disagree with someone depending on the topic.

> The moderation is quite bad too.

What moderation? There's been a picture of feces inside a toilet bowl on that Blind thread for the past 3 hours.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#332

Post by cactusplant7374 »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #331
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are discussing this thread here: https://www.teamblind.com/post/The-Hacker-News-community-vie... Partial archive: https://archive.ph/npoh6 As you would expect, it's horrible. The moderation is quite bad too. They'll ban you for just saying you disagree with someone depending on the topic.

> The moderation is quite bad too. What moderation? There's been a picture of feces inside a toilet bowl on that Blind thread for the past 3 hours.

Feast or famine, as they say. Whole new meaning to the phrase "shit hole."

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#333

Post by AndrewKemendo »

Kalium wrote: post #323
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think you need a different explanation for why worker-owners would value equity if they can't expect to be able to sell it for a profit Because you believe what you are doing is more important than maximizing how much money you can make

You can take that approach, but if your argument is that workers can expect to be financially compensated just as well in a cooperative structure as outside one then you may experience some difficulties. The person I was interacting with had made precisely this argument.

>financially compensated just as well

Actually better [1]: "Additionally, the average cooperative wage paid at all reporting worker cooperatives is $19.67 per hour, more than $7 higher than the minimum wage in the 13 states with the most worker co-ops."

Oh, I'm sorry. You were probably talking about the infinitely small minority of software workers that make the top of the top salaries + non-controlling equity that is just more salary really. So long as you don't get laid off right?

Should all labor be structured around some pipe-dream that everyone can be a billionaire as long as nobody shares or cares about those around them?

The problem is that it's an apples to oranges comparison friend

On average most people make more than people on average in corporations it's just that the lottery ticket like chance of getting so rich that you can move into the capital class and leave all the peasants back on earth is not only unlikely, it's explicitly an anti-goal.

[2] https://ncbaclusa.coop/blog/worker-co-op-employees-now-earn-...

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#334

Post by AndrewKemendo »

kortilla wrote: post #317
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>still had no part in making the improvement. Please explain how this "improvement" happened without the "laborers"

Lots of ways. Buying cost critical supplies in bulk from cheaper suppliers. Switching from truck based shipping to rail for distance where the flexibility isn’t needed. Those are just the low hanging fruits without any major impact to how work is done. Stepping down into the internals of the business, it’s going to vary a lot but in manufacturing you spend time looking at high failure rate processes, bottlenecks, and…

I love how the answer is "by eliminating labor altogether"

I couldn't have explained worker alienation better had I tried

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#335

Post by Kalium »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #333
Kalium wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take that approach, but if your argument is that workers can expect to be financially compensated just as well in a cooperative structure as outside one then you may experience some difficulties. The person I was interacting with had made precisely this argument.

>financially compensated just as well Actually better [1]: "Additionally, the average cooperative wage paid at all reporting worker cooperatives is $19.67 per hour, more than $7 higher than the minimum wage in the 13 states with the most worker co-ops." Oh, I'm sorry. You were probably talking about the infinitely small minority of software workers that make the top of the top salaries + non-controlling equity that i…

I think if you want to argue to specific people that they should join your nascent cooperative on the basis that it will pay just as well, you should be prepared to have some way to back that up for the particular workers you're trying to recruit. If that's the infinitely small minority of software workers in question, then that's the wage you have to meet. This is an apples to apples comparison because it was set up that way from the start. If you want to argue they should take a pay cut to do something morally superior, then you should argue this instead of claiming equivalent pay is readily achievable.

This is not a general position about how all or even any significant portion of labor should be organized. This is a specific comment, offered narrowly in a particular and rather unusual situation.

You seem to be treating me as someone who opposes cooperatives. This is amusingly far from correct. My objections here are not anti-cooperative, they are practical objections to the contradictions in the plan of someone I would like to see succeed.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#336

Post by AndrewKemendo »

Kalium wrote: post #335
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>financially compensated just as well Actually better [1]: "Additionally, the average cooperative wage paid at all reporting worker cooperatives is $19.67 per hour, more than $7 higher than the minimum wage in the 13 states with the most worker co-ops." Oh, I'm sorry. You were probably talking about the infinitely small minority of software workers that make the top of the top salaries + non-controlling equity that i…

I think if you want to argue to specific people that they should join your nascent cooperative on the basis that it will pay just as well, you should be prepared to have some way to back that up for the particular workers you're trying to recruit. If that's the infinitely small minority of software workers in question, then that's the wage you have to meet. This is an apples to apples comparison because it was set up…

Edit: Sorry for being abrasive

It's not "either or", it's "yes and" is my point.

And yes the plan is to pay what the cooperative approves. If we can afford 500k per worker and meet all cooperative goals and the organization approves it in the annual budget then that's what everyone will get.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#337

Post by Kalium »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #336
Kalium wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you want to argue to specific people that they should join your nascent cooperative on the basis that it will pay just as well, you should be prepared to have some way to back that up for the particular workers you're trying to recruit. If that's the infinitely small minority of software workers in question, then that's the wage you have to meet. This is an apples to apples comparison because it was set up…

Edit: Sorry for being abrasive It's not "either or", it's "yes and" is my point. And yes the plan is to pay what the cooperative approves. If we can afford 500k per worker and meet all cooperative goals and the organization approves it in the annual budget then that's what everyone will get.

Yes and the person I was engaged with was attempting to make a half-baked case for worker-owners financially valuing equity in a cooperative the same way an investor with access to a liquid market would. Which is a patent absurdity.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#338

Post by kortilla »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #334
kortilla wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of ways. Buying cost critical supplies in bulk from cheaper suppliers. Switching from truck based shipping to rail for distance where the flexibility isn’t needed. Those are just the low hanging fruits without any major impact to how work is done. Stepping down into the internals of the business, it’s going to vary a lot but in manufacturing you spend time looking at high failure rate processes, bottlenecks, and…

I love how the answer is "by eliminating labor altogether" I couldn't have explained worker alienation better had I tried

You air quoted something I did not say. Re-read my comment and at least try to learn how people that improve productivity are beneficial both to society and can be to labor itself.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#339

Post by gnramires »

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #14

It just occurred to me that so many people were laid off, we could start the world's largest software co-op (and arguably one of the largest tech orgs, period). We could build software products that every industry needs, that every worker owns a part of and can vote on org-wide decisions. Literally everyone you need was laid off... Tech people, business people, marketing, sales, etc. We just need a forum and some vol…

Here's what I think can be more important than co-op (although I think co-ops seem like a good idea and I'd like to see more):

(a) Open governance model: the companies decisions has input from employees and users, even the general public (with care taken not to suffer attacks e.g. sybil attacks from false users)

(b) Ethical goal model: have a non-modifiable set of goals and ethical standards (improve the lives of everyone). Not maximizing revenue, but genuinely improving wellbeing of everyone. (this should have the benefit of attracting ESG investors)

(c) Cross-industry cooperation: open sourcing as much as feasible, and asking users and other collaborators for donations to maintain the project. Likewise, contribute financially to projects that are useful for the company. Basically, establish cooperation networks among open source, open governance and ethical companies.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#340

Post by kortilla »

gnramires wrote: post #339
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #14

It just occurred to me that so many people were laid off, we could start the world's largest software co-op (and arguably one of the largest tech orgs, period). We could build software products that every industry needs, that every worker owns a part of and can vote on org-wide decisions. Literally everyone you need was laid off... Tech people, business people, marketing, sales, etc. We just need a forum and some vol…

Here's what I think can be more important than co-op (although I think co-ops seem like a good idea and I'd like to see more): (a) Open governance model: the companies decisions has input from employees and users, even the general public (with care taken not to suffer attacks e.g. sybil attacks from false users) (b) Ethical goal model: have a non-modifiable set of goals and ethical standards (improve the lives of eve…

>improve the lives of everyone

This is a really naive goal. It’s super trivial to twist almost anything into “improving the lives of everyone”.

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