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Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#331

Post by stormking »

simion314 wrote: post #311
mixmastamyk wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point was about not needing a "magic" editor. Neither does python, it works with spaces or tabs as long as you are consistent, and tells you where you aren't.

My point is that if I define a metric for easier to use by a beginner programmer (child) then C syntax > Python syntax If you define a different metric, maybe pretty syntax then it would compare in reverse. Though I don't have experience or seen people testing this on children and "proving" that having to keep in mind spaces/tabs is harder then the braces and semicolumns (when using a decent IDE) so I may be wrong.

> My point is that if I define a metric for easier to use by a beginner programmer (child) then C syntax > Python syntax

That's pure speculation, not a fact.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#333

Post by jpfed »

jpfed wrote: post #329
Impossible wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also totally understand why virtual consoles almost all use BASIC or lua, but (for me, not for my kids) I wish there were an option with static types. The combination of not being able to see much code on the screen at once plus no static type checking is pretty uncomfortable for me At some point the question becomes why not just use Unity, BFXR, Bosca Ceoil and ASE Sprite if you want no constraints and better to…

The all-in-one nature of most fantasy consoles is really appealing. They are also not terribly opinionated, which can be nice. When I tried Unity its 2d story was not good and I kind of struggled with its opinions. I've heard that its 2d has improved, but haven't had the time to explore it since. I actually do like reasonably low resolutions in-game rather than in the code editor. When I play with my kids I want it t…

Ha! Hi-res editor mode is on the roadmap: https://github.com/nesbox/TIC-80/issues/723#issuecomment-419...

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#334

Post by 3rdAccount »

teddyh wrote: post #306
3rdAccount wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm a python beast, but really struggled with Assembly language in school. I'd have been better off with a ZXSpectrum earlier in life so I could've learned hardware. IMO high level languages (as insanely useful as they are) are similar to writing spells like a wizard and using assembly or even basic when you know all the registers...etc is more like a real science. Both are valuable, but I really wish I knew…

Having a ZX Spectrum would in no way actually help you learn hardware. The only thing it would do is to reinforce its realness , so to speak, which would help to motivate you to learn it. But it would not actually help you learn it – the design and learning curve of assembly language is what it is, and having access to running hardware (compared to having an emulator) does not change that.

It makes it easy to learn the hardware because it has a simple processor and makes it dirt simple to access. Windows on the other hand runs on modern chips and it isn't easy to run assembly without 3rd party software and graphics is also not something a child can easily handle. I suppose a good emulator would be similar, but emulation is a little bit of a lie :)

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#335

Post by andrewstuart »

astrodust wrote: post #246
andrewstuart wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a key point. The cognitive distance between power on and "10 print" is nothing. The cognitive distance between all modern ways to teach programming is vast.

Not really. $('h1').html('Billy Named Emperor') to hack around with web pages is actually super easy.

Sure thing. All you need to understand is jquery, selectors, the DOM, method calls, inner HTML and in fact the entire context of web programming in which this command executes.

Pretty much exactly the same as print "hello world"

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#337

Post by jaysonelliot »

drivers99 wrote: post #253
jaysonelliot wrote: post #226

Personally, I'd just get them an Apple II. They're still plentiful and cheap to find on eBay, and it's exactly what you're looking for. There are modern hardware upgrades you can find to use CF or SD cards in place of floppies, so old media won't be an issue, as well as modern ways to connect to an LCD screen, and even Ethernet cards if you want to go online. And of course, the Apple II is supremely open and hackable…

I second that. I just set up an Apple IIgs last weekend and was making some small Basic programs with my son. He was actually really into it, unlike in the past when he was too young. He has had some exposure to Scratch so that may have helped as well. We didn't have any way to load or save programs, so I'll have to look into the cards you mentioned.

I have a CFFA3000 and an SDFloppy II. Both are great, but I prefer the CFFA3000 and use it regularly.

CFFA3000: http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforA...

SDFloppy II: http://www.a2heaven.com/webshop/index.php?rt=product/product...

Another good option, the Floppy Emu: https://www.bigmessowires.com/floppy-emu/

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#338

Post by simion314 »

stormking wrote: post #331
simion314 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that if I define a metric for easier to use by a beginner programmer (child) then C syntax > Python syntax If you define a different metric, maybe pretty syntax then it would compare in reverse. Though I don't have experience or seen people testing this on children and "proving" that having to keep in mind spaces/tabs is harder then the braces and semicolumns (when using a decent IDE) so I may be wrong.

> My point is that if I define a metric for easier to use by a beginner programmer (child) then C syntax > Python syntax That's pure speculation, not a fact.

My speculation is based on the FACT that python syntax involves the programmer to indent correctly where C like syntax is not , so the only way you could disagree is that maybe

1 the cost of keeping indentation in mind for beginners is 0

2 or the cost is greater then zero but there is some different cost in C like syntax that affects beginners

Keep in mind I am talking about syntax here and not the C language

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#339

Post by ComputerGuru »

knicholes wrote: post #269
ComputerGuru wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use a language that doesn’t have that problem, then you don’t need a magic editor.

If a kid can understand a for loop, I think the kid should be able to understand indentation.

Hardly. One you can see, one you can't. And that's without accounting for the real cause for consternation: tabs vs spaces, and tabs being magically changed to spaces or vice versa because of your too-smart-but-not-smart-enough editor.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#340

Post by mixmastamyk »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #339
knicholes wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a kid can understand a for loop, I think the kid should be able to understand indentation.

Hardly. One you can see, one you can't. And that's without accounting for the real cause for consternation: tabs vs spaces, and tabs being magically changed to spaces or vice versa because of your too-smart-but-not-smart-enough editor.

As mentioned previously, Python warns about inconsistent indentation. Also, I learned programming at age 12 and understanding indentation didn't take more than a few seconds.
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