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Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

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Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#321
I am 43 and I have been programming professionally for the past 26 years.

I had good early education, but left school as a college freshman to focus on industry work, and didn't return until 2004. The lack of formal education has never held me back, as technology companies especially like people who have been successful without those credentials. I am doing a graduate program in CS now, for the pure intellectual fun of it.

Pay has continued steadily over my career, with the only setbacks being self-imposed when I tried my own startups or left a high paying job for a lesser one because of better long-term prospects. It is mentally hard deciding to leave those $200k+/year jobs, but I have not once regretted it. In the end, I have only had 2 years total in my career where my taxable gross was less than the year before, and one of those years is when I took a year off to goof off (as an aside, I highly recommend that people do this every 5 years or so).

I have always wondered about ageism, mostly because I started doing this when I was 18 and there were a lot of older developers I worked with that were not effective. I have come to learn over time that age has really little to do with this: people can become complacent for a variety of reasons, and age has little to do with it.

The few folks I've known that are older and who did have trouble finding jobs had some other life issues in the way, such as letting their skills become irrelevant, being a bitter whiner, or not being a very good salesperson. You don't have to be the smartest tool in the shed to interview well, and sometimes you will not (I have had some spectacular uhhhh-duh moments more than once!), but take those setbacks as opportunities to learn and improve, not to sit and complain.

The whole discussion on management, leadership, architecture, etc. is quite pertinent. I have done mostly architecture since my early 20s and always find myself back in that role whether or fight it or not. I try very hard to code every single day, but the reality is businesses get more value from me when I am looking at the bigger picture and enabling others to code faster. Personally, I would much rather go code than do that type of work, but it is still very fulfilling and is still engineering.

When I give others career advice and coaching, my number 1 suggestion is to always do what you love, but be open-minded about what that means. Most of us will find ourselves with a variety of opportunities over the years and being self-limiting is the best way to keep your career from advancing.

My number 2 suggestion on career is that if find yourself being the smartest person in your company, either because you are or just believe it, it is time to move on. Don't be that guy/girl.

I have always deliberately avoided the siren-song of the Valley, but I know I could make enough compensation to make up for the cost of living differences and still support my family well there. But, I will only go there if the project/company is one where I will be making a substantial impact on something interesting. And, frankly, that really should be true for anyone with more than 20 years of experience: it is time to use your experience for great works, not just paying the bills.

p.s. rules of thumbs are just that, and sometimes you have to make compromises because life is in the way - that's okay, too. Just don't let yourself fall into a trap/rut because of those.

p.p.s. people in this field are rich by almost every measure, even if you aren't technically still in the 1%. If you're struggling to get by in the Bay Area, there are a lot better places to live where you can do a lot better. Don't be fooled into thinking that is the only place to be.

p.p.p.s. get off my lawn

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#322
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another path, in the UK at least, which is to join the public sector, become employed by the state.

The UK public sector outsourced most technical work years ago to the likes of EDS, IBM and BT, transferring over existing employees. There's very little internal expertise left. Most contracts seem to be negotiated in a way that allows the big firms make huge amounts of money on the inevitable change requests.

Ah, yes, that whole gov.uk thing.

I must have dreamed it then.

And so must have the 180+ people hired to work on various parts of it who are not part of EDS, IBM and BT.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#323

I'm in my late 40s and switched to full time management about a year ago. I didn't have to, it was a choice. I felt there was a management/leadership gap at my company. One I thought I could fill and do a good job. It wasn't about pay. Yes, the pay is greater. It is inline with my expanded sphere of influence. That said, how many managers have you seen doing tech talks at conferences? As a developer, that is one plac…

Yes.

Totally true. IF you are a developer.

How many managers do you meet who still contribute to Free Software? Or who even look at Stackoverflow, let alone contribute.

You might, which might make you exceptional but the vast majority of managers do not. Yet you are llikely only achieving 10-15% premium over them.

Whilst you (and they) are achieving a significantly higher premium over existant developers.

The problem is that the close you are to the people are the top of the leadership chain, the more they believe you are valuable -- even when your value is motivating other people nothing particularly intrinsic to you.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau. Mine seems to keep climbing. I'm hearing reports of >$300k, and have received an offer in that range myself (counting signing bonuses and stock grants). Granted my pay might plateau there , but honestly that's enough money to keep me happy without having to see it go up every year. I'm a total generalist, but I also have a few areas where I would qualify as a specialist;…

Making an annual salary + bonus of $300K at a mobile games studio, in Boulder CO is pretty impressive. Counting stock though is always a bit dicey, especially if you coded through the 90's :-).

On counting stock: It's a big public company I'm talking about, a modern blue chip, so the stock will be worth something.

But I'm not counting it right now, regardless. The cash part of the offer is entirely enough to keep me happy for each of the first two years, and the stock is a bonus.

Starting in year three, though, compensation is nearly half stock. I did code through the 90's, so I'm going to take any stock valuation with a grain of salt. I'll reevaluate my options at that time, if I decide to stick with them for that long.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#325
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over 25 years on both coasts, I have yet to see someone strictly coding (no exec or mgmt duties) break $200K. All the families I know in SV are either lawyer/finance/medical, 2-income households, or cashed out.

Most devs with ~10yrs experience at a B2C software company you've heard of earns >$200k total comp.

> Most devs with ~10yrs experience at a B2C software company you've heard of earns >$200k total comp.

I don't think that's accurate. Most? Really? Maybe the top 5 or 10%, and in most cases I suspect they are team leads with 3+ devs either reporting or defacto following their lead.

It's absolutely not the case outside of USA coasts.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#326
post #29

It seems that they go a few directions: The most common seems to be to try and generalize, because relearning most of your job skills every few years starts to get annoying the 20th time you've had to do it. It's different when you are younger and everything is new, you just chalk up a major tooling change as just something else to learn. But when the next hot platform or architecture or whatever comes out you get ti…

Path 1, Programmers don't usually make good management role. This has evidence in neuroscience. People who become manager earlier in their career usually are the kind of people who are not STEM type but sales type, and their difference usually show in early age and lead to very different life journey. Convert yourself into a role not fit not only bring suffer but potentially a career suicide.

2. Architect or senior specialist, this is probably the most nature and common development as programmers age. However, most of them often become technological dinosaurs when distance self from hands on works and not able to keep up for too long. Analysis turns into paralysis, abstraction turns into distraction. Their value is reflected mostly in legacy system of those business functions slow to evolve. But every ten years or so a major platform revolution usually throw them off the bus.

3. Get into other profession where their long time disciplined training as a programmer can benefit. As stay out of the pressure of fast pace technology evolution, this career could be a winning path if you're never a passionate programmer and ok to settle for a 9 to 5 job waiting the day to retire. But the problem is, most programmers are never the type of person who can settle with these kinds of work to begin with. Admittedly many are, who have programming as a 9 to 5 job, would find this path with ease if money is not a priority.

4. Entrepreneur at an older age. The upside of this path is obvious. Years of experiences go both technology and human will greatly benefit your business operation and market. True, this is another form of management, but different from corporate management, the personal achievement, responsibility, idea, build, essentially a manifestation of programming at its grind level. If programming is toy play, running a small business is the real deal. If you're ever good at programming, it shouldn't very different to create once own business.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#327
post #33

I'm curious to hear the answer to these questions from a woman's perspective. I met a few lady engineers through IEEE involvement in university who were further along in their careers, but I haven't met very many other lady devs over the age of 35.

I am a 40 year old female whose been coding since I was 23. College degree but not in comp sci. Completely self taught. I have never felt more at the top of my game as I do right now! In my "short" time as a developer I've worked for startups, fortune 500s and did 7 years at Amazon. I've had a large amount of experience on both coasts. So far I've had zero problems being recruited. I tend to mark that up to the presence of amzn on resume. Names do open doors for better or worse it's true.

I did take a small pay cut when I left the startup for a larger company. Mainly because the startup was grossly over paying me. However I got a bonus up front and my performance the first year earned me a merit raise back in line with my former salary. I've now surpassed that. So far no plateau.

I'm currently trying to make the decision to move into management. In my current role as a tech lead I do a lot of management anyway so why not get the title and a salary bump? The only options at my next promotion is manger or architect so if I stay there it's the time to make that decision. It probably helps that I don't care much for developing in our stack. I do code a significant amount on my own projects to offset that though. In my early 30's I was so burned out from coding that I thought I needed to quit programming. I realized I really just needed to quit amzn. :) no matter what I decide I'll always code I just may not do it as a part of my job. I cannot stress enough the importance of keeping current. That plus experience is what will keep you marketable.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#328
post #33

I'm curious to hear the answer to these questions from a woman's perspective. I met a few lady engineers through IEEE involvement in university who were further along in their careers, but I haven't met very many other lady devs over the age of 35.

I am a 40 year old female whose been coding since I was 23. College degree but not in comp sci. Completely self taught. I have never felt more at the top of my game as I do right now! In my "short" time as a developer I've worked for startups, fortune 500s and did 7 years at Amazon. I've had a large amount of experience on both coasts. So far I've had zero problems being recruited. I tend to mark that up to the prese…

I know at least 4 female developers who all had kids and kept programming through the entire cycle. They took maternity leave to recover then went right back to their high stress, high paying, high reward jobs. Just wanted to provide a counterbalance. It certainly take all kinds.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#329
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

"There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K" Luckily, since you're making $300K you have essentially no problems outside of this. Aside from your sourpuss attitude.

Agreed. I am a solid developer with ten years experience living in Spain. 1/5th of that salary is good money here.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#330
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great post -- I want to throw out another option though, which I am exploring myself. Your post seems to, like most posts on HN, be a very "web application" centric view of things. There are obviously vast worlds of software engineering outside of web applications. Embedded/real-time systems, programming languages & tools, robotics, graphics, bioinformatics/computational biology, machine learning, machine vision, the…

Sounds like what I want to be doing. I'm curious if you have additional insight on taking on this path, I want to keep all of my options open and instead of say just pursue embedded/real-time systems and find out that the field is too narrow. What do you recommend to study as opposed to CRUD web-apps, C/C++, ML, data analysis with Python/R or learn more domain specific knowledge such as Bioinformatics or graphics or…

I am a database developer in a sequencing center. I would not recommend bioinformatics if you have any passion for good quality code.

There are some decent bioinformaticians out there, but most of them write crap 100 line scripts, and have very little desire to learn more than the basics. I am getting increasingly frustrated, as I can see I am clearly writing significantly smarter software then these people (most of them are just counting things and plotting the counts on a graph). I am seen by management as being the same kind of skill level / skill set.

If of course you are really interested in the research, then you may like it, but do not expect your coding skills to be valued.

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