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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#321

Post by swampthing »

vasco wrote: post #307
swampthing wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. If you're not getting quality applicants, how do you know if that's because of your salary range, the default applicant pool, or something idiosyncratic to your company? If you're a new startup founder, you don't always have a good sense of what the default applicant pool should look like. You might have a sense of what quality looks like but how would you know without recruiting experience what t…

Because when we raised the range it fixed the problem.

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about people in general.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#322

Post by qwytw »

tptacek wrote: post #276
hypeatei wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's widely understood and part of the job description of being a public servant. What's not widely understood is HR secretly selling your data while working at a private company.

Why would that be a widely understood part of the job description? Almost every American teacher, firefighter, planner, street engineer, health inspector, police officer, train conductor, bus driver, along with the managers, office administrative staff, janitors, and groundskeepers that support those activities are public sector employees. What do they have in common that would suggest they deserve less privacy than…

Usually they all get paid more or less the same since compensation is directly tied to the job title/rank and other public criteria. This information (in aggregate) shouldn't ever be non-public (under any circumstances) due to obvious reason. So even if your specific salary/wage is not published anyone who knows what's your specific title/job would be able to estimate it somewhat accurately.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#323

Post by Wytwwww »

f1shy wrote: post #198
admissionsguy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or live in Sweden (where your earnings as well as your address and property, car or pet ownership are public record)

I’ve read about that. Is ipen to ANYbody? Is there a link? Thanks

IIRC in Norway at least everyone (who lives there) can check it but your name will be recorded and visible to that person.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#324

Post by Wytwwww »

crazygringo wrote: post #314
__loam wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of getting this data if it's not to pay less money? What is the value add?

Because it's just as much to pay more money and get the employees you want. When you don't know what the market is paying, you're liable to lowball offers and refuse to raise them, and not get the employees you want. If you know market rates, you can provide reasonable first offers, or have a more accurate idea of how high you should go.

Which would be perfectly fine if you made this completely transparent and made the same information available to your applicants. Them not knowing the market rates (at least not even remotely as accurately) puts them at a significant disadvantage and you can't expect that most company won't exploit because it would be irrational to do that.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#325

Post by qwytw »

jasode wrote: post #118

Competitors making similar price adjustments or salary adjustments based on seeing each other's public announcements or sharing data is legal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion That's why it's "legal tacit collusion" when one leading law firm announces salary increases and other law firms immediately match it : https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/large-law-firms-... That type of salary matching ha…

> when one leading law firm announces salary increases and other law firms immediately match it

Because it's public so doesn't reduce the amount of bargaining power employes have and therefore distort the market. Which is the main problem here.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#326

Post by macspoofing »

nowyoudont wrote: post #290
jasode wrote: post #118

Competitors making similar price adjustments or salary adjustments based on seeing each other's public announcements or sharing data is legal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion That's why it's "legal tacit collusion" when one leading law firm announces salary increases and other law firms immediately match it : https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/large-law-firms-... That type of salary matching ha…

Huh, this tacit collusion being legal thing is mind boggling. The law firm example seems imperfect though. Publicly announcing that you’re raising salaries isn’t really the same as internally sharing that data and choosing to set the same salary based on that.

>Huh, this tacit collusion being legal thing is mind boggling.

Not really ... If you're looking to hire workers in a particular region, how do you know what a competitive wage is? Well ... you look at what similar firms are paying their workers. How do you know what similar firms are paying their workers? You read surveys, industry reports, public statements, etc.

Nothing about any of that means you cannot offer a higher or lower salary for the same position.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#327

Post by Wytwwww »

elawler24 wrote: post #45

I got access to Pave through one of my investors. Seeing the data made us set salaries and contractor rates higher, not lower. It’s like salary banding at big companies. It’s a framework for how much other people are paid at the same level, not a contract. HR will make it seem like a rule, but if you do spectacular work - you can always negotiate. Collusion requires an agreement between rivals that negatively disrupt…

> Is this company not actually making the market more efficient and transparent

No, not at all. Unless applicants/employees get full access to the same information.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#328

Post by bjornsing »

ghaff wrote: post #305
bjornsing wrote: post #300

> My question is, isn't this specifically anti-competitive wage fixing? This seems exactly like RealPage but for employee compensation. As far as I know, colluding on wages like this is illegal. As long as Pave just helps employers look backward in time so to speak I’m not sure I’d call it collusion. But if they enable some kind of coordination between future potential employers, then yes, maybe it is. In the RealPag…

Companies compare pricing all the time even if it doesn't involve smoke-filled rooms with execs doing tit-for-tat. You don't think your local grocery store knows what the other local chain is charging (or what they're paying their employees)?

Sure. And as I said there’s nothing illegal about that, as long as it’s about historical and current prices. But if your local grocer walks over to their competitor and has a conversation about what the prices (or salaries) should be tomorrow, then that’s illegal in many jurisdictions. The same rules should apply if they use software.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#329

Post by richardw »

gperkins978 wrote: post #252
Kon-Peki wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… and the usage? Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them. You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire. Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two. Try do…

This is also why certain homes get hit in high-end burglary crews. There are multiple crews hitting those who purchase precious metals with physical delivery (like gold American Eagle coins). It is not all positive. Considering how few victims even bother to report such crimes, it is terrifying. From what I understand from my cousin, a career criminal, there are entire theft rings working off of databases such as the…

That feels like it should be its own post. But be safe out there.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#330

Post by zo1 »

iav wrote: post #189
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax. That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on…

I am an investor in equifax. Let me clear up a misconception on where the data comes from. Half the data comes from large enterprise customers, who “sell” the data in exchange for Equifax doing I-9 verification for free. The other half comes from 39 payroll companies. Every single payroll company except for Rippling and Gusto sell paystub data to Euifax. (Rippling will start next year). Those are exclusive revenue sh…

Maybe I'm missing something... If the data doesn't come from the employer, then how does the "payroll" company get it?
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