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Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#321

Post by JoeAltmaier »

wegfawefgawefg wrote: post #319
mschuster91 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note also, it’s not just electronics regs that act in this way - our societies have become much more regulated and rule bound in my life time. Often things for good reason. After WW2 we were in a high-trust, low-barrier society state across the Western world [1]. You could leave your door unlocked and no one would come and rob you, your children could roam free as they pleased, you could start what could become a m…

The low trust part could mostly be a (percieved) race thing. I wont claim to understand human psychology. But I dont think thats enough to explain this. Something relevant, a lot of the houses that were allowed to be built in the 40s would be illegal now. I could probably build a decently sized small house with a garage with a cousin for 20-30k. But it would be illegal to live in. Even in the countryside... and event…

Hm. Where I live, I built my house in the country. There were no rules, no inspections except well and septic by the county health department.

Maybe other counties have the resources to create bureaucracies. But her in the Midwest there's not the budget for creating elaborate rules, much less paying inspectors.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#322

Post by Symbiote »

nimish wrote: post #195

The absolute best toasting toaster I've ever used is basically a couple of resistors in a sheet metal case with a spring timer: Dualit Classic. It's comically overpriced but it does one thing and does it well.

It is also made in the UK, so it's essentially exactly what the poster wants.

Maybe an easier business would be marketing European-made devices to Americans. Is "Made in the UK/Germany/France/Italy/EU" etc valuable to Americans?

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#323

Post by pbronez »

vidarh wrote: post #117
quacked wrote: post #16

I've had a similar idea, except in addition to toasters, it's midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers... What I've found is that regulations make it impossible to sell simple machines, labor costs make it impossible to compete on price, lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse wh…

I think you need to aim for a luxury-ish niche, or at least a occupy a space where people feel like they're buying a piece of luxury, that's aspirational, where people know they're paying over the odds and that's part of the feel good factor of buying it. A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach. But figuring out the marketing o…

I recently discovered someone doing this.

Revolution Cooking sells $280 and $350 toasters. They have touch screens, dozens of modes optimized for different kinds of bread, gluten-free mode and 7 toastiness levels. One of my colleagues has one and loves it dearly.

It appears to be a US design firm that uses contract manufacturing:

“we developed a proprietary alloy, a new, more efficient component design system, and intelligent heating algorithms that adjust in real-time.”

“Tom assembled a team of world class engineers, designers and product marketers in Boston, MA, where Revolution Cooking is headquartered today.”

https://revcook.com/pages/compare

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#324

Post by masto »

jws wrote: post #60

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.) Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an a…

They don't all have nothing that isn't required. My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud. It was a pre-order in 2015 that didn't ship for two years. Unfortunately they sold out to Weber a couple of years ago and the product has been discontinued, much to the disappointment of the few remaining loyal fans.

I hoped that was the kind of toaster OP wanted to make, but despite what I wrote above, this is not a disagreement with anything you said. I think people have mostly come to their senses (or have just run out of disposable income) these days and I suspect the market for $1500 smart toasters, if it ever existed, has dried up.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#325

Post by sgarland »

tim333 wrote: post #291
arghwhat wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an analog computer programmed by human experts. That hasn't been the case in ages. Modern cheap toasters use a dedicated toaster chip (... yes), which is a plain timer but with built-in retained heat compensation for when the toaster is used back-to-back. Fewer components equals cheaper toaster. A very fancy toaster would have s…

Gosh I didn't know there were toaster chips but it seems so. One here 8 pin package with pin 3 being the bagel pin. https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PT8A2514A.pdf

I have wondered for the longest time what the BAGEL button actually did, because on my cheap toaster, it seems to do very little.

Unfortunately I still have more questions after reading the schematic.

SW4 (BAGEL) allows current flow through R9/LED3 (BAGEL) which raises Vbe on Q2, forward biasing it, allowing current flow through Q2, dropping Vcs.

Meanwhile, power has been flowing through the main switch, with RL3/RL4 making a voltage divider. That main power flows to D1, forward biasing it, and then hits the cathode of D4, reverse biasing it, and allows Relay 1 to hold main power closed. The cathode of D4 also tees off to inputs on Relay 2, and the cathode of D5 (whose anode is fed by both another input on Relay 2, and the source of Q2).

So, when Q2’s Vcs drops due to it turning on, D5 presumably reverse biases, so the only input felt on Relay 2-2 is from D1. And Relay 2 does… something. If anyone else can explain, I’d be grateful.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#326

Post by dtnewman »

jws wrote: post #60

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.) Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an a…

> * When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. *

I’m not gonna claim to know anything about toasters or manufacturing, but I’d hypothesize that selling American made toasters to the masses is no longer feasible. Most people just want to buy a cheap toaster and don’t care where it is made. So if you were a large company selling to the masses, that business model doesn’t work. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a much smaller business selling to toast enthusiasts today. I just think it’s largely about branding. Can you make a superior, long, lasting toaster that will appeal to toaster enthusiasts? And can you do it for a price that is in the realm of reasonable? I can imagine buying an overpriced toaster that will last me 30 years for $300 (I personally wouldn’t but if we’re into toast, maybe). But I wouldn’t spend $1000 on it. On the other hand, what do I know? There’s plenty of fancy coffee equipment that sells for more than that, although I’d guess that the coffee snob market is much larger.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#327

Post by sgarland »

nindalf wrote: post #186
jongjong wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is regulated these days and it usually costs a fortune and helps nobody except incumbents. Makes everything feel rigged and makes me not want to participate in the economy. I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research. Manufacturers could optionally pay some standards company to add some safety label to it to help boost customer confidence but it sh…

American consumers think that “made in the USA” is a sign of quality. The regulations in the USA that weed out poor quality products are a big part of that. You buy such a product without being afraid that you’re going to injure yourself when you plug it in because the safety regulations are working.

But quixotically, they are rarely willing to pay the premium that American manufacturing brings with it.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#328

Post by stuaxo »

jws wrote: post #60

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.) Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an a…

Weird, I was just wondering 5 minutes ago if someone could do a modern take on the toaster that used the bimetallic strip - no necessarily the same mechanism but something analogue that gave a similar result.

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#329

Post by madeofpalk »

masto wrote: post #324
jws wrote: post #60

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.) Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an a…

They don't all have nothing that isn't required. My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud. It was a pre-order in 2015 that didn't ship for two years. Unfortunately they sold out to Weber a couple of years ago and the product has been discontinued, much to…

Surely in 2015 we all knew that a wifi toaster running android was going to be a disaster?

Re: Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?

#330

Post by neonlights84 »

cbracketdash wrote: post #133
neonlights84 wrote: post #82

Given all of the regulatory obstacles and logistical headaches surrounding manufactured products these days, I personally feel that mechanical/electrical entrepreneurship is a path to ruin. Since you're in software already, would it not make more sense to create a strictly-digital product? Keep your day job, work at your own pace on software products (ideally with a partner), and see whether the market actually wants…

Enter Elon Musk with Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink, & Neuralink... he seems to have it figured out

For every success story, there are 9+ failures.
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