Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#321

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 12:53 PM UTC

johneth wrote: post #247

muzani wrote: post #67

Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same. The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here. Indian name: Sathiavelllu Arunachalam, known as SA or Seth SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Indonesian name: Fatimah Azzahra (…

The GOV.UK design system[1] agrees with you: > "Use single or multiple fields depending on your user’s needs. Not everyone’s name fits the first-name, last-name format. Using multiple name fields mean there’s more risk that a person’s name will not fit the format you’ve chosen and that it is entered incorrectly." and > "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#322

Post by vidanay » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 12:54 PM UTC

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #273

weinzierl wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same." This is the way to go. "The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here." It doesn't make much sense in many places all over the world. In Germany technically speaking our given names are a set and we can have many of them. While it is practically necessary to write them out in a certain order in our documents, from a legal s…

Agreed. Currently consulting for an org which is having this very debate; the consensus is leaning towards replacing FirstName/LastName with FullName (i.e how are you generally identified) and PreferredName (how do you like to be addressed). Some additional observations from the German-speaking world (both Vienna and rural Austria): - yes, we also often refer to people, even in everyday speech, as LastName FirstName…

Boris Kuester von Jurgens-Ratenicz

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#323

Post by YesJustWolf » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 12:56 PM UTC

muzani wrote: post #67

Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same. The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here. Indian name: Sathiavelllu Arunachalam, known as SA or Seth SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Indonesian name: Fatimah Azzahra (…

And don't forget people with just a single name. Filling in computer forms that require two names is the bane of my existence.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#324

Post by paulmooreparks » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 12:59 PM UTC

chomp wrote: post #6

Use a single text field for the full name.

And make it a rather long text field. And make it accept pretty much any character. But watch out for Little Bobby Tables. (https://xkcd.com/327/)

Names are HARD.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#325

Post by noirbot » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

westernpopular wrote: post #126

dontupvoteme wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting however >People have exactly one canonical full name. What is on your passport then?

I can tell you that in my passport, my name appears in two different places and it's spelled differently been them. Also, a lot of people in the world don't have passports.

I can also tell you that the passport office doesn't check anything very well, at least in the US, as my name on my passport doesn't actually match the name on my birth cert or SSN paperwork. I guess I mis-wrote it when I filled it out originally, but now I have to deal with how to get it fixed. For renewals, they only have a "my name changed" field, not a "you messed it up", so I've been ineffective at correcting the issue for years now.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#326

Post by ghusbands » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

worrycue wrote: post #119

muzani wrote: post #67

Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same. The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here. Indian name: Sathiavelllu Arunachalam, known as SA or Seth SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Indonesian name: Fatimah Azzahra (…

> SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Really? Your parents named you the exact same name as a famous politician? Edit: Really? Downvote me for the OP’s bad English?

The poster you're replying to is not claiming to be four different people or even any one of them, and your challenge does not contribute anything. In the case of Lee Kuan Yew, he did indeed drop Harry from his name, with varying stated reasons.

The fragment "Hated the name Harry and got it removed" probably means "[He] hated the name Harry and got it removed", not "[I] hated the name Harry and got it removed". The grammar is acceptable in many contexts.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#327

Post by smcl » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

puszczyk wrote: post #209

toyg wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Bavaria where I live, the informal convention is also last name first It's probably a Roman thing. Julius Caesar was actually "Caesar, of the gens Julia", so last-name first. In Italy we also used to list last-name first, particularly in official and military communications. This has changed significantly in the last 40 years, particularly in everyday bureaucracy, but it's still used by police and other bodies.

In Poland informally it’s always . Formally, it depends most places are on the same as informal, but particularly military and some other bureaucracies will use . I always thought this is a holdout from the pre-computer days to make it easier to sort alphabetically (last names are a bit better distributed than the popular first names). In France they seem to prefer (yes, all caps) even for less formal things.

I've seen this in Czech too - sometimes lastname first but maybe more in old-school things. I think I'm registered with the Czech FA as "McSurname Sean" :-D

Also this "reversal" had me confused when we hosted a French exchange student without knowing French (I spoke German, but the teachers knew my family were happy to host if they needed). His name was written like "KHALID Mohamed" and he was very polite so he didn't really correct me when I was calling him "Khalid", and since I was unfamiliar with Algerian names I had experience to suggest "Khalid" was more surname-y than firstname-y. It sorted itself out after a day or two though :-)

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#328

Post by robobro » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

In Indonesia , we have name anarchy. Some people have a family name, some people have two given names, some people only have one name, some people have many names and none of them are family names...

How will your app handle people with a single name? My wife's mother splits her name in two based on syllables, but that's not exactly right.

I think two fields, one mandatory -- "name" -- and other optional -- "preferred name" -- is the way to go.

You should also consider how to handle people changing names, in the events of marriage, sex change, religious conversion, or what have you.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#329

Post by kroltan » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

Don't even need to go as far as Asia, even european-descended cultures have different naming conventions.

Here in Brazil, it is very common to have "compound names" which are just... two given names you have to use together, for example "Ana Maria", AND it is also common to have "middle names" which are neither family names, nor given. My name, for example, is Leonardo Giovanni Scur, but "Leonardo" is my given name that I respond and expect people to call me by, and "Scur" is the family name. "Giovanni" only exists in documents, basically.

So, the first question is, what are you using their names for? If you are a paid service that identifies users to other users by name, ask for a "billing name" for your legal/policy needs, and a "display name" for identification, don't attribute any structure to it. If you don't need a legally identifying name, just ask for the "display name", and let people name themselves "Sir Bearington of Nunya Biznis".

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#330

Post by kroltan » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 1:17 PM UTC

kroltan wrote: post #329

Don't even need to go as far as Asia, even european-descended cultures have different naming conventions. Here in Brazil, it is very common to have "compound names" which are just... two given names you have to use together, for example "Ana Maria", AND it is also common to have "middle names" which are neither family names, nor given. My name, for example, is Leonardo Giovanni Scur, but "Leonardo" is my given name t…

Tangent:

A common reasoning for asking for a structured name is to build visually consistent interfaces, such as identifying everyone by their given name.

But that is disrespectful to people with "complicated" names, as well as social conventions. Some people would rather be called by their family name, others their given name, and I guarantee you none of them says "but think about the pretty, homogenous UI we will be leaving behind!".

For users, your brand aesthetics are at best very far down on their list of things to care about, even lower than thinking about what specific dish they will make for lunch in 3 weeks.