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Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#321
post #317

There’s nothing new, here. It’s been going on for decades, in one form or another. Visual Basic was sort of a “no code” solution, at one time (of course, it is, actually, “code,” but the barest minimum possible). The dream of the C-Suite has always been to toss out those filthy engineers, and generate product directly from the (obviously) superior minds of the executives. Not sure how well that’s worked out, so far…

The thing is, I hear people give as examples "excel", "visualbasic", and all I can think of is "wow, these are wildly successful technologies that improved the lives of millions of people" Also, these types of technologies do not reduce demand for real programmers. And a desire to deploy them - effectively to make a product more "programmable" by end users - may not be rooted in a desire to replace developers, but ra…

I know a guy that had the best thing ever happen to his career, because of this.

Back in the last century, he was a well-paid employee of a bank (C++). He managed a group of experienced engineers.

The bank wanted to roll out a new product, and they asked him to submit a bid from his group. He specced out a reasonable 18-month plan for a C++ project.

A Vice-President then stepped in, and yanked the project, stating that he, and a small team of sycophants, could do the project in six months, using VB.

My friend quit, and spent the next two years, traveling the world.

When he came back, the project was a shambles, the VP had been fired, and the bank was begging my friend to come back.

He vowed never to be an employee again, and signed on as a contractor, for an eye-watering rate; which the bank immediately paid.

Last I talked to him, he’d brought a house in a Tony neighborhood, for cash, and he wasn’t even 40, yet.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#322
post #10

It's interesting, but always calibrate their claims against the fact this is about the tenth time this movement has come around. This movement literally goes back to COBOL. That is not a typo. It's not only likely older than you are, but probably much older than you are. I recognize COBOL may not seem like "no-code", but that's just because "no-code" is a stupid label. "No-code" doesn't mean "no code" just like "serv…

+1

You just have to look at WordPress / Squarespace / Wix / Weebly / I forget the rest ... for examples of consumer-oriented platforms, however you define the term "consumer," that promise no coding needed for the average user - but you'll get a better result if it's built by a fluent developer who isn't constrained by the platform's conventions.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#323
post #10

It's interesting, but always calibrate their claims against the fact this is about the tenth time this movement has come around. This movement literally goes back to COBOL. That is not a typo. It's not only likely older than you are, but probably much older than you are. I recognize COBOL may not seem like "no-code", but that's just because "no-code" is a stupid label. "No-code" doesn't mean "no code" just like "serv…

[No|Low] code platforms just breed a new class of consultants instead of empowering end users due to the simple fact that [no|low] code is still too technical.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#324

Maybe ask some of these people: 1 hour before you Ask HN: Do you like the term 'nocode'? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29187754 2 days ago Ask HN: No Code GUI Tools? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29160858 3 months ago Ask HN: Is there any future for low-code/no-code development? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28150056 4 months ago Ask HN: Anyone built a business with no-code tools? https://news.yc…

Most of these posts have less than ten comments where this one is at 317 currently. It's no secret you gotta "win the HN lottery" before traction on a post occurs, repeated submissions are going to be a natural consequence of that.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#325
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every general no code platform I've worked with has had an order of magnitude (sometimes, multiple) worse maintainability story than code alternatives. And admittedly, maybe I've worked with a series of terrible ones, but I've also worked with a lot of popular ones that big enterprises are adopting. As for open source, I'd say zero percent chance that happens, because no code solves problems developers don't have: (1…

Based on your experience would you be comfortable to list a few of the no-code tools to avoid when taking maintainability into account? Would be useful.

Names seems a bit specific, but it's easy enough to think in terms of basic software hygiene practices: things we expect our languages and their ecosystems to provide in traditional code these days.

Is the "code" serialized to a text readable format, for storage and parsing by other tools? Can I get a copy of that serialization? Can I regenerate the effective program from that serialization?

Are there methods for appropriate modularization and encapsulation?

Is there a coherent versioning strategy that allows for controlled updates, down through dependencies?

Can I check it into standard source control? And does it play nice with the expectations therein?

Basically: everything you were taught in undergrad for software engineering & at your first job

The biggest problem with the industry is that it's being sold to people who know none of that, or they're being told that doesn't really matter here, because this isn't code and thus doesn't need all that.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#326
post #10

It's interesting, but always calibrate their claims against the fact this is about the tenth time this movement has come around. This movement literally goes back to COBOL. That is not a typo. It's not only likely older than you are, but probably much older than you are. I recognize COBOL may not seem like "no-code", but that's just because "no-code" is a stupid label. "No-code" doesn't mean "no code" just like "serv…

well said!

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#327

I was wondering if there was any similar conversation going on way way back when compilers were a new thing - found this gem by Grace Hopper (1958) (yeah THAT Grace Hopper). https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ie50587a038 She's talking about the difference between "programmer" (one who designs logic and processes) from "coder" (one who converts those processes to "codes" - i.e. assembly) and how compilers have the p…

I first learned of Grace Hopper from a children's book I read to my kids.

Recently, I've been wondering what kinds of Hopperesque ease-of-coding advancements are still left to be invented. For example, are there advancements to made in syntax highlighting to make code read more like a natural language, and bugs easier to spot. (I'm explaining my thoughts poorly, text is the wrong medium).

Also: I Ctrl+F-ed "Grace" on the main page of this post knowing I'd find a hit.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#328
no-code works and has been working for a long time now, depending on how you define it. Think of all the web site builders, young and old, and all the things they helped non technical people achieve. The difference now is that the tech is better and more mature - standard, scalable APIs at lower cost, so no-code tools are getting better, and this new wave will IMO impact how companies operate and create internal tools. Will someone create the next letter in FAANG with bubble or retool? I don't think so, but will those tools help many people in several industries? I believe so.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#330
I’ve had a few of times over my 16 year software development career (mostly early on) where I’ve seen tools that have made me pause and think “that’s it, this is going to make my job obsolete”

None of them ever have, of course. It turns out it’s really difficult to make and maintain general purpose tools that allow for non-engineers to generate the end result they want. If for no other reason this is because of the edge cases. You can get really far, but for the most part I’d describe the limits as capable of a really good proof-of-concept.

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