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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

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311–320 of 474 posts

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#311

How come nobody mentions France in the comments? :) I am French but have been working 12 years for a very large US company , spent a lot of time in the US, go friends there - an witnessed/helped several Americans moving to France. Salary and healthcare were already covered. The fact that over a 3 days drive across Europe you visit 4 or 5 countries with vastly different cultures is a big plus. And by vastly I mean rea…

That's funny about the tap water. Remember my first visit to France as a kid (~late 70s) and the whole family wondering at the stuff floating in Paris tap water. We did not touch it, and drank bottled water. Btw, this was in a very nice rented flat near Etoile on Ave. Victor Hugo.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much that, you can be integrated in Berlin without speaking German nor interacting with german people

You can but most people will give you shit for not speaking German. Some of them are extremely rude about it too. Even/especially if you're quite obviously a tourist. And where the hell are the non-smokers hiding? That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten. Literally one of the most beautiful places I've been on the planet.

Check out Tempelhofer feld, not exactly beautiful but utterly unique.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#313
- Estonia

- Pay and all the amenities of home, particularly in regard to food (both fast and cooking at home varieties)

- Well, a wife, but everything else is in the negative

Very short version of a long story: Am American. Company got bought, I was laid off. Travelled for a while. Friend eventually got me to move to Estonia to work. Hated it immediately. Made plans to move back, met a girl, stayed for said girl because US immigration is excruciating.

Now you may be asking what I disliked about it. I’ll try to highlight the top points in roughly descending order:

1- Pay in Europe sucks by comparison with the US, and I’m not talking net pay after you pay for your free healthcare, I’m talking gross… it just sucks. I would say take what you made in the US and halve it, at least. In Estonia a Senior Dev salary is about what a teacher makes in the US somewhere in the south (not a high income area). Living expenses are not necessarily commiserate with the pay, especially with my €850 power bill last month.

2- The weather is abysmal. No one on either continent seems to realize how far north Europe is vs. the US (thanks Mercator!). In Estonia the sun doesn’t actually set in the summer, and in winter you get sun from about 9am to 3:30pm. Both HUGELY messed with me (and still do 4.5 years later).

3- There is a huge language barrier. Even in Tallinn, and places you would kind of expect to be better about it, like a big pharmacy chain, you’ll routinely (read: daily) have issues if you don’t speak Estonian or Russian. I’ve also had people just get annoyed and throw up their hands and stop helping me if I speak English. They calm down and come back… most of the time. I’ve even considered moving to Helsinki (80km north) just to live in a society that doesn’t glare when you say “hello”.

4- The free public healthcare is worthless if you don’t speak Estonian or Russian. There is one GP that every expat I know goes to in Tallinn because he speaks English very well, but if you need anything else you’re screwed and will probably just pay out of pocket to see a private specialist. Private health insurance is a growing trend for this reason, but if your company is largely Estonian (or Estonian run) no one will ever think it’s worth spending money on. Even the Minister of Health recently said they’re working on the issue but that the “ultimate solution is to learn Estonian”.

5- People aren’t friendly. It’s (somewhat) true that Estonians “warm up” once they get to know you, but neither friends nor strangers will ever come close to what you’d be familiar with in any of the English speaking world. I even actively avoid making eye contact with people now - just walk with your head down. At a bar you never talk to the drunk stranger next to you.

6- There is a definite racism and xenophobia issue here. If the US had been conquered as many times and by as many different groups as Estonia I’m sure we’d have the same problem, but I honestly expected better for an EU country. Even if you’re as pasty white as they are, as soon as you challenge or complain about something, out comes the “Estonia is perfect, leave already” attitude. As with many places in the world, you also run the risk of paying the “foreigner tax” - knowing that you’re a foreigner they’ll just assume you don’t know how much something costs and will just blindly pay whatever they say. Complaining will likely get you a string of Estonian or Russian you don’t understand and potentially the person to just leave.

7- Service in general is awful. I don’t know if it’s because they don’t work for tips or because employment laws make it almost impossible to fire someone or what, but I hope your food comes out right the first time and you don’t finish your drink because chances are good you won’t see your server again until they want to be paid.

8- Kind of related to that, and something I have trouble explaining that should really be higher on this list… no one seems to care about their jobs in the same way they would in the US. I don’t mean as far as keeping the job, I mean doing it. Kind of an “I’ll do my job, but I’m not going to work my ass off or do anything more than absolutely required” kind of apathy. It doesn’t matter if the company is trying to win a new client or is afraid they’re going to lose one, none of the employees seem to care either way, like they don’t realize or care if their jobs might disappear as a result.

9- For some reason every employer wants to give you a stupid cheap backpack. I’ve already got an expensive one, how about just giving me a bonus of whatever you’d have spent on it instead?

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#314
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Berlin and feel fully integrated here. Whether or not that's possible really depends on location, there's many in Europe where it absolutely is.

The downside is, Berlin is not really integrated into Germany.

Well I come from NYC, so this is not exactly new to me. I suppose I'm the kind of person that belongs in a big city that's not really part of it's host nation.

Also, it is really not true that you can truly integrate, even in Berlin, without speaking German.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#315
post #15

I'm just outside London, moved here to marry my English wife from Vegas. I work part time doing basic IT for a US law firm due to health issues after heart surgery, and Yankee dollars are worth jack shit here - I'm not making serious tech industry money, but over here it's barely enough to survive on. Housing is always smaller than you'd get in (at least the western) US for the same price, and I'd bet that's true pre…

I think it is debatable if UK is really a European nation. US and UK are far closer in various dimensions than UK and any other European country.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#316
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do love living in New Orleans, either this or Brooklyn are the only real cities for me here. I need to be able to walk to a grocery store. I'm privileged to have lived here for 6 years, and the only reason I recently got an old truck, was to evacuate in case of a hurricane, and we didn't even evacuate during ida. The sidewalks are torn to shit, the streets are full of holes. I'm quite certain that the streets are n…

New Orleans is a wonderful city. Berlin does seem like a great option to live for a couple years-- the biggest problem being that it's arguably too appealing to expats. I'd also recommend Valparaíso, Chile as a good Berlin alternative if you want to try Latin American life for a while.

I could also see myself in Mexico City since I already speak Spanish pretty fluently, and have far more friends who expatriated there, but I really wanted to learn Russian and Berlin has much better resources for foreign language instruction.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post 9/11 America was indeed very toxic, but I have to ask how much you have been back since? (Not to say our political culture isn’t still toxic)

Yes, multiple times and my viewpoint remains.

That’s fair, I never had the fortune to live in pre 9/11 America as an adult, so I lack that perspective.

I share a lot of your perspectives too, but I’m pretty content with my little corner up in the PNW.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#318
post #305

I've done it, and it was one of the best decisions of my life. WHERE: I'm Australian, moved to LA when I was 18 and lived there for 15 years. Then, I moved from Los Angeles to Germany (Duesseldorf), and then to Vienna, Austria. WHAT SACRIFICE: No more In 'n Out Burger, no more decent Mexican/TexMex food, no more LA food trucks. These are literally the only things I miss about the USA. Literally every other aspect of…

Lets not forget the fact that OP is white. I am not a race baiter, and hate identity politics. But as a non-white person, I would rather live in US than Europe. Forget about the social media takes, and lets talk about ground reality. US (and probably Canada), with all its fault, is one of the few countries on earth, where immigration and immigrants are normal and expected. I can also practice my religion with freedom…

> I can also practice my religion with freedom, unlike most of Europe (UK is one exception with caveats of course) that are hell bent on restricting religious expressions.

In which European countries could you not do that? I’m in Scandinavia and can’t imagine what kind of problem regarding religious practice you would encounter here that you wouldn’t in the US or UK.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much that, you can be integrated in Berlin without speaking German nor interacting with german people

You can but most people will give you shit for not speaking German. Some of them are extremely rude about it too. Even/especially if you're quite obviously a tourist. And where the hell are the non-smokers hiding? That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten. Literally one of the most beautiful places I've been on the planet.

> That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten

Someone said it too! I have had few arguments with people, mostly New Yorkers, over this.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#320

I'm sure others will cover the shorter-term aspects. I'll add that, particularly if you're not young or have a family, it wouldn't hurt to consider the fact that you will probably have a great time for the first N years, but there might be a slump when you realize that you will probably never really integrate and will have a smaller social circle because of it, in a place where people seem to have smaller casual grou…

This is something that doesn't get talked about often and i'm glad you brought it up. For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased.…

Thank you for beautifully putting the main difference between US and Europe. This is quite accurate in terms of how US and Europe see immigrants.
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