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Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

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Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#311
post #309
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure it's feasible to meaningfully regulate/legislate what a "healthy bank account" is for such a company. I'm not sure it is either, the law is a blunt tool and it's not always possible to legislate things like "be ethical". One potential way to do legislate this is to require that plaintiffs place funds in escrow pending the outcome of the case, to pay for the other sides fees if they lose. Occasionally c…

> One potential way to do legislate this is to require that plaintiffs place funds in escrow pending the outcome of the case, to pay for the other sides fees if they lose. Occasionally courts will already order this under current law. I'm not going to generally advocate for that as a good idea though, I think it probably has a lot of side effects and I haven't put enough thought into it to be sure it is a good idea.…

Collateral requirements would generally only apply to plaintiffs (the people suing), requiring collateral for the defendant is obviously problematic...

You would expect the value to be set by the court as an approximation of the amount of fees that they might award to the defendant (which in turn is an approximation of what a reasonable defense might cost), as the lawsuit goes on you would expect the court to periodically increase the collateral requirements on the plaintiff, since the total cost to defend the suit has gone up.

Small, legitimate, companies having to put up collateral is an unfortunate side effect, but if they have good claims (and can convince a lender of that) they should be able to finance it... so that's probably not the end of the world? It does seem like a bit of an access to justice problem, not really sure how I feel about it.

> They have to do the said research and put quite a lot of money in it (which is what makes those patents valuable and arguably a benefit to society as a whole), and that distinguishes them from an average patent troll.

This is true if they license the patent directly to the manufacturers, but that's not necessarily the case. It seems entirely reasonable for a company to discover a drug, patent it (so they have something to sell), and then sell the patent to another company that deals with licensing it out to drug companies.

A license management company (aka patent troll) in the middle comes with a number of benefits:

- Chances are there's still a lot of risk associated with that drug, e.g. it might fail in human trials, by selling the patent immediately you reduce your risk.

- Licensing patents is not your core competency as a drug discovery company, it makes sense to have an entity that handles licensing for the patents invented by many different drug-discovery companies.

- You might, for whatever reason, want to stop operating as a drug discovery company. Maybe you want to retire. This shouldn't wipe out the worth of your previous work.

Generally, assets being transferable seems like a good thing. A lot of our society is based upon that principle... and if patents are transferable, it seems inconsistent to say "you can do X with asset Y, and so can most other companies, but not if the only thing a company does is doing X to assets Y". Inconsistencies like that generally lead to weird arbitrage opportunities and inefficiencies in society...

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#312
post #311
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One potential way to do legislate this is to require that plaintiffs place funds in escrow pending the outcome of the case, to pay for the other sides fees if they lose. Occasionally courts will already order this under current law. I'm not going to generally advocate for that as a good idea though, I think it probably has a lot of side effects and I haven't put enough thought into it to be sure it is a good idea.…

Collateral requirements would generally only apply to plaintiffs (the people suing), requiring collateral for the defendant is obviously problematic... You would expect the value to be set by the court as an approximation of the amount of fees that they might award to the defendant (which in turn is an approximation of what a reasonable defense might cost), as the lawsuit goes on you would expect the court to periodi…

Imposing limits on intellectual property for public benefit is nothing new, though. Expiration terms, for example.

So the system might still work fine even if all patents get shut down when a company that acquired them does.

It's not what I suggested, though: just that a non-practicing (at least in some sense) company can't litigate.

That would mean that you can sell your patents to some shell company even. But the recipient couldn't sue anybody over them until they either start a profitable business on the side relating to said patents. Or they resell it again to a company that satisfies the requirements. Or have a lump sum set aside in escrow, I guess.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#313
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is not the same thing as society. The government is more than willing to burn money pursuing people who break its rules, to pretty significant effect, but individuals and private companies presently lack the requisite sense of pride/aggression/honor/whatever. One obvious source of this problem is that n-tit-for-tat behavior in humans is moderated by testosterone levels, which have been declining precip…

> problem is that n-tit-for-tat behavior in humans is moderated by testosterone levels, which have been declining precipitously sorry, what?

Could you clarify which part of that was confusing/unclear/you disagree with? Happy to expand on it.

n-tit-for-tat behavior is the family of game-theoretic strategies where you respond to a defection by defecting one or more times, but if the other participants don't defect then neither do you. Most societies encode this kind of behavior as some system of honor and propriety, where you don't transgress against another person unless they transgress against you, and then you are free to engage in various degrees of retaliation.

tit-for-tat would be proportional response, and then you have a whole continuum of disproportionate response up to grim trigger (infinity-tit-for-tat), which would correspond to a blood feud or something.

ntft strategies are known to be highly performant or even optimal in many settings, and are very easy to compute.

As testosterone levels decrease, the viable societal distribution of n goes down, at some point drifting into sub-1, which pushes you into a sub-optimal strategy domain.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#314
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some way the two of you can do a blog or soenthing outlining the main points when dealing with such a threat?

Agreed -- it would be a service to the community that helped connect them if they could share some approaches / advice for others in a future similar situation!

I could discuss it with Andrew, but every case will be unique and necessitate its own approach. If I could make one suggestion for anyone dealing with a software patent issue, from my crash-course, is to look into Alice (2014)[1] under Section 101, and review any similar cases, especially by the same entity. You can download case documents pretty cheaply and learn a lot. I paid like 15c a page, and seeing the docket is free. Take the curiosity you have for computers and apply it to the legal system. It's inputs and outputs. But don't go too deep and put your business on the bench. Move the needle a little each day but know you have some time and don't rush into any decisions. Ultimately it's not the end of the world and life will go on.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Corp._v._CLS_Bank_Intern...

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I meant that it won't materially affect the finding of whether infringement occurred, willful or accidental.

That wasn't the question. It was whether hard work is being taken for free.

I know what the question was since I literally asked it

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#316
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed -- it would be a service to the community that helped connect them if they could share some approaches / advice for others in a future similar situation!

I could discuss it with Andrew, but every case will be unique and necessitate its own approach. If I could make one suggestion for anyone dealing with a software patent issue, from my crash-course, is to look into Alice (2014)[1] under Section 101, and review any similar cases, especially by the same entity. You can download case documents pretty cheaply and learn a lot. I paid like 15c a page, and seeing the docket…

Also look at RECAP https://free.law/recap/

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#317
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking forward to the day a patent troll comments on a discussion

People take enough cheap shots at adtech folks, when they offer their perspective. I assume the patent troll approach would be that they're returning value to their investors, while following the law as it stands.

That works both ways - the IP folks have their own echo chamber. I remember reading one article on an IP blog which mentioned that of course IP laywers know much more about what would help innovation than engineers.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#318
post #316
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could discuss it with Andrew, but every case will be unique and necessitate its own approach. If I could make one suggestion for anyone dealing with a software patent issue, from my crash-course, is to look into Alice (2014)[1] under Section 101, and review any similar cases, especially by the same entity. You can download case documents pretty cheaply and learn a lot. I paid like 15c a page, and seeing the docket…

Also look at RECAP https://free.law/recap/

Thx

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#319
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed -- it would be a service to the community that helped connect them if they could share some approaches / advice for others in a future similar situation!

I could discuss it with Andrew, but every case will be unique and necessitate its own approach. If I could make one suggestion for anyone dealing with a software patent issue, from my crash-course, is to look into Alice (2014)[1] under Section 101, and review any similar cases, especially by the same entity. You can download case documents pretty cheaply and learn a lot. I paid like 15c a page, and seeing the docket…

Super, thx

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#320
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm blown away by your willingness to take on these cases pro bono. There are too many greedy lawyers out there who put money over people.

> There are too many greedy lawyers out there who put money over people. Name one

Google exists.
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