I spent two years welding ships together at the shipyards in San Diego. Yay fallback skills! There are times when I miss it. Of all the jobs I've had over the years, it was the most meritocratic. If you did your job well and didn't cause too much rework, they loved you. I don't miss the hazardous/chemically toxic work environment, though. Those two years felt like a decade of wear on my body.
didn't you wear any protection?
Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
311–320 of 419 posts
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#312I got hired as employee #12 in a dotcom in March 2000; by December I was out of a job. In between, the company raised and mostly spent about $35 million. The biggest single expenditure was a huge deal to own a topic channel on AltaVista, which was one of the big portal sites of the day. Everyone was building portals because search engines were dead ends that were hard to monetize (seriously, this is what people thoug…
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps, but you're still lopping your SV salary in half, and if you want a central 1 BR that's not government housing, you're paying close to SF housing prices.
Well, those visas that allow you to work in SV don't grow on trees. (And you'd have to put up with California and the US.) If you do have an American passport, you get a double-whammy in opportunity costs: you can already work in SV, and you still have to pay American taxes even when you are not working there. --- The government housing in Singapore can be quite nice. But yes, you are going to live in a high rise tow…
(I'm an American living abroad so I deal with this every year.)
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#314We basically ran out of money as the bust happened. Alcatel had their eye on buying us.. what they did is wait till the company was running out of money and had laid everyone off in waves. Once the company was a skeleton they bought it for a song. They had to hire a few of the principal engineers back as consultants but not 24 year olds like me! There was some bad behavior along the way from management, they were hiding the true financial situation from the employees.
The other aspect of the bust I remember is a Morgan Stanley "financial adviser" trying to take me for everything I was worth when I was leaving Cisco. The Cisco stock was like $150/share or something when I was leaving. I didn't have enough money to buy the shares. Morgan Stanley had some kind of deal with Cisco where they assigned us financial advisers. The adviser was trying to get me to take out a near six-figures loan to buy options on margin. "You can just keep it for a year and then sell it and make a pretty penny after paying off the loan!" I declined and within a month or two of my leaving the bust hit and my shares would have been underwater by > $100 a share. It would have seriously messed up my financial future in a major way. That guy was such a crook.
The actual layoff in the bust wasn't that bad but it still set me back a bit. I was out of work for about 2 months, I lived with my parents for a bit but found a contract that I kept for 2 years. Taking the contracting work was pretty lucrative but not that smart in the long term. After that 2 year stint things were still pretty bad as that was the era of "outsourcing overseas is the future!" and I had another 2 years of sideways work that wasn't great for my career. Things started looking up in 2006 and were vastly better by 2010. The "great recession" had 0 effect on me.
I was totally delusional in my early to mid 20s about how easy it was going to be to work at a startup and be successful. It was also a super different era in terms of office and overall culture. You were a near social pariah as soon as anyone found out you were a software engineer, it was 100% not cool to be a tech worker. Women would immediately lose interest in you and practically run away as soon as they heard the word engineer. We were all still 100% considered nerds, not cool in any way. Also there were NO young people in the office. In my 20s there was almost no job I ever had were there was anyone else in the office under 20.
Other aspects I remember.. almost no perks in the office, way more crunch time, much longer hours at the startups. In the last 10 years I worked at 3 startups, one had the long hours like a 1990s-early 2000s startup, but the others are/were so incredibly cushy that it felt like no work was getting done. People yelled a lot more in the office. Stuff that was regularly done then would be considered abusive today and would generate lots of reports to HR.
AFAICT around 2010 when everyone started saying "Millenials" a lot things really, really changed in our industry. Mostly for the better.
In 2002 when I got layed off (Boston area) it was pretty grim. The war in Iraq had not started. So there was an absolute army of highly qualified highly experienced engineers that had been laid off by the defense contractors. Career fairs were scary scenes. Obviously they all went back to defense as soon as the Iraq war started... so the rest of us who weren't interested in the defense path didn't have to compete with them. But it was real scary going to career fairs.
A lot of job postings at that time in the bust had ridiculous/fake requirements. You'd see things like "10 years of experience in J2EE". J2EE was new and hot. But it was like 2-3 years old at that point! The postings were mostly about companies trying to fake that they were doing well... put up the fake job postings to make it look like you were growing when in actuality they were barely hanging on.
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
HP was a different company by 2008. The HP Way had been replaced by the usual corporate abuse - good for the share price, bad for everyone else.
The hiring of Fiorina is a good marker when HP started to go downhill, and the 2008 recession was like the climax of this somewhat tragic story.
"I really think this is what Bill and Dave would have done"
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#316Weirdly, it had very little impact on me. I got my first dev job in December of 1998 and was let go in early 2000. Then I did contract work for O'Reilly (yes, that O'Reilly). We ported a pretty horrendous forum web app (WebBoard) written in VB to Perl on Unix. In early 2001, just as we were finishing, they announced that they were shutting down their software division. Around early 2001 I started at a new startup in…
About the only effect of the bust I saw was that the job market went south with all the temporarily embarrassed "software engineers" seeking positions like mine (I was/am a system admin and developer among many other things).
Kept the job until the market improved somewhat, cashed in my 401k at the time (dumb) to put a down payment on a house just before the 2008 bust. Then I went to work for a University for 10 years.
The major impact of the various busts on me has been a lack of mobility (both career wise and ability to move to a new house). Other than that, not much.
I credit this to my choice of jobs (building a career) and focus in the industry, plus the fact that I've lived the role since college. I didn't become an IT guy because it was a way to get and keep good jobs... I was already one college, and I've been lucky that what I am happens to pay well.
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#317I had a summer internship at HP while I was in college. (I graduated in 1992.) When I graduated, the assumption/expectation was that they would offer me a job. They hesitated, and a manager who was unusually nice to me explained that HP hires people who will stick around for many years -- and thus, they weighed every hire carefully. He went further and said that several years before that, when there had been a recess…
Hey, lately i'v read "The HP Way: How Bill Hewlett and I Built Our Company" and your story really resonates to what the founders said. Snippet: > We have always considered that we have a responsibility to our employees to plan our work so we can assure job continuity. We do not intend to have a "Hire 'em and fi re 'em" operation. This poses some serious considerations. One is always compelled to fi nd the most effi c…
"I want to discuss why a company exists in the first place. In other words, why are we here? I think many people assume, wrongly, that a company exists simply to make money. While this is an important result of a company's existence, we have to go deeper and find the real reasons for our being. As we investigate this, we inevitably come to the conclusion that a group of people get together and exist as an institution that we call a company so they are able to accomplish something collectively which they could not accomplish separately. They are able to do something worthwhile-they make a contribution to society (a phrase which sounds trite but is fundamental)"
Remember that Bill and Dave started HP as a 2 man operation in their garage during the great depression. They basically built the company from nothing into a technology power house over the course of their lives and the things that they went through clearly shaped how they ran the company. It is a testament that you can still find a large number of impressive engineers that were HP lifers.
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, those visas that allow you to work in SV don't grow on trees. (And you'd have to put up with California and the US.) If you do have an American passport, you get a double-whammy in opportunity costs: you can already work in SV, and you still have to pay American taxes even when you are not working there. --- The government housing in Singapore can be quite nice. But yes, you are going to live in a high rise tow…
About the taxes thing -- you can subtract foreign taxes that you pay from your American tax bill, and you also get an exemption on your first $100,000 of earnings, so it really only affects you if you're living in a low-tax-rate country AND making a six-figure salary in USD. (I'm an American living abroad so I deal with this every year.)
Otherwise, you are probably better off in a lower cost place.
I assume you still have to do your American taxes, even if just to show that you didn't hit the threshold?
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#319I was ~1.5 years out of college and at a small dot-com with a niche SaaS at the time. I distinctly remember 9/11 and the chill that came over our office that day. That passed in time, but our economic prospects never recovered. I used to hit the gym in the mornings and then work ~10am-7pm and I distinctly remember the day ~9 months later when the VP of engineering called me on my cell while I was finishing up my work…
I know of one company that actually managed to pull off the pivot thing! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TippingPoint They switched from an internet appliance (kind of like an early Chromebook) to smart deep packet inspection firewalls. Not a ton in common between those except that they both require hardware to be built. If I remember right, local lore was that they pulled it off partly by realizing early that they nee…
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18063362
Posting anon.
In 2009, the startup where I was working was hitting the skids, and our investors (correctly) were not willing to back us. We all kept grinding for a month or two in honorable futility, but after a while, my bank account depleted and I had to go.
To make various ends meet and to keep my mental health during the wind down however, I took up some contract work that I found through various friends in the SF startup scene. One company that I really liked and did some small stuff for was Burbn, which was a mobile-only location check-in that was hinged around taking photos of your location.
Missing my friends in NYC (I made a lot of friends in SF, but my inner circle were my college buddies from CMU; I went to tech and they went finance, sigh), I decided to leave SF to head to NYC and get a fresh start.
As I was leaving, I wanted to tie up a few loose ends, so I emailed my contact at Burbn and said I was likely to be unavailable for any more work, but that I liked the project and hoped for the best for him. He responded and said that he was near funding on a small pivot, and that if I was interested, there might be a full-time role available. I declined - I was mentally done with SF and the startup scene (Larry Chiang, 111 Minna, the rise of FB spam-crap like RockYou, etc.) as it was then.
That person was Kevin Systrom; that pivot was Instagram.
Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?
#320This is the most useful thread in HN in years. As someone who started his engineering career after the burst, is good to hear the experiences (good ones and bad ones) before the next one burst.
This bust will be very different than the first tech bubble. The first tech bubble laid off a lot of folks working for small ( really hurt. Most of the valuation of big tech companies came from their terminal value (which was unknown for a long time because the business models haven't been proven). That value is now better known, but valuations haven't come down to earth because there has been so much foreign money f…