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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#311

Post by TheFattestNinja »

barry-cotter wrote: post #299
arvinsim wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful about using that analogy. While the Western world would most likely choose to leave, the Eastern world would more likely do the opposite.

It isn’t even true for the Western world. More like Northwestern Europe and those polities founded by people from those countries. Italy has a high rate of adult unmarried children living at home and it’s definitely part of the West.

As an Italian expat I can assure you it's not because people want to do that, but more due to the economical conjecture. Sure, there might be the odd one that is just "lazy", but p.much anyone you speak to <35 that hasn't left home yet will tell you that moving away from parental house is very high up in their priority, but they just can't afford that.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#312

Post by bensummers »

Because it's hard to do well, and you have to build everything with it in mind.

We've been very successful with a strategy of hiring new graduates and training them. This is what we've done:

https://www.haplo.com/news/working-with-early-stage-develope...

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#313

Post by zelos »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

But surely if they're leaving for a better job elsewhere, it's because the company that trained them hasn't increased their salary in line with their new abilities?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#314

Post by justanegg »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

you could incentivise them to stay by upgrading their hardware as well as a loyalty bonus, so they get a new macbook pro and new hires get the older machines.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#315

Post by chillacy »

freewilly1040 wrote: post #154
kristopolous wrote: post #151

There's either a cost or benefit of everyone on the team. Programmers generally push the code at a constant velocity in one trajectory between the two. They'll be somewhere between fixing things and making it better to breaking things and creating new problems that eventually need to be undone and re-solved, pushing the quality down and deadlines back. People tending towards the second group are a waste of time and m…

I think this is the right answer, though I think there's a mentoring element that has to be considered. Plenty of people will break things if left unsupervised but will learn quickly to contribute if they get the right feedback.

Unfortunately feedback has a price: senior engineers have to do more thorough code reviews, they may have to explain more fundamental things, and it all adds up. Some junior devs are independent and learn quickly with minimal feedback. Bless these devs, I love working with them. Some junior devs require a lot of time, and make the same mistakes over and over.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#316

Post by Flenser »

ivansavz wrote: post #171
stormbrew wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other replies touch on this, but I'm gonna get straight to the point: Does your friend give them actual, meaningful raises as they grow? Is he actually paying competitively to begin with? Because I think if you have this pattern that consistently, it's really likely that either you're underpaying to begin with or your raises suck or are not even present. I love working at small companies. It's by far my preferenc…

That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. I think what's going on is that after a year at any job you start to see the problems with the code base, and it starts to get repetitive. It will be like that both in big-co and small-co, but in a differen…

> (for the local market)

There is no local market, at least not in the long term. Once a junior developer has acquired some skills and experience they're going to start looking at other markets where their market rate will be higher, and being less likely to have attachments that make it harder to move they will find it easier to move than more senior developers.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#317

Post by barrkel »

zelos wrote: post #313
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

But surely if they're leaving for a better job elsewhere, it's because the company that trained them hasn't increased their salary in line with their new abilities?

Salary isn't the only thing that people are looking for. Especially if you're early in your career, your interests and abilities aren't clear. As you learn more, you find you enjoy one thing more than another, are better at some things and not at others. Also, early in your career, you have fewer options, so you may start out in an area that's not close to your specific interests.

I'd guess it's more likely than not that someone who's learning lots and quickly will find that they're better suited, and thus more valuable, to a different employer than their first employer. It's not simply a matter of raising wages. It's getting a close fit of aptitude and interest with the work at hand.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#318

Post by jallardice »

I'm the co-founder of a web-focused consultancy which works with larger, "enterprise" type businesses to fund work with much smaller companies, usually pre-seed startups. We hire more experienced engineers to work on the ground with the larger clients and we actively hire more junior engineers to work alongside a small number of experienced people on the startup projects. We find this offers solid on-the-job training for the juniors as they rapidly get exposure to a wide range of skills and technologies without necessarily being hampered by legacy codebases, massively complex change management and deployment processes and office politics.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#319

Post by therealmarv »

My brother studied with focus on AI (Germany) and is searching for nearly 1 year for a job... one should think that this is the most requested job on the planet. But nobody wants to have AI experts without 5-8 years experience.

If somebody wants to change that message me here ;)

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#320

Post by CaRDiaK »

GordonS wrote: post #222
throwaway3265 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a schema that I've seen used in Nestle which is quite bad TBH: they offer a course that you have to pass for a position this guy was trying to get to. This training course was fairly long (4 years) and expensive for an individual, however the company would pay for it. BUT only on the condition the student/employee would finish it and stay in the company for at least 1 more year. Now I hear you, they cannot f…

This is actually quite a common arrangement at larger companies in the UK. I don't have a problem with it myself - it's simple to understand, and the company is giving you something of high value, and retaining your services for a minimum period in return.

It is common in the UK and normally they are well thought out and have balanced benefit for both parties. I did dodge a bullet once in my career though where a bunch of mid level devs were proposed a course to take them to senior (and a 5% raise) but it came with a 2.5 year retainer.

I read all the docs carefully and I wasn't convinced by the course content so didn't take it. On the day the course was to begin, one manager pulled me to one side and said they really value me and would offer me a 8% raise—but I had to take it right now—he even had an amended contract and pen in his hand, open on the last page for me to sign then and there. I refused. I was seen as a bit of black sheep by management afterwards and sidelined.

Every dev that took it came to me over the course of the next few weeks and said they wished they hadn't taken it as they didn't learn anything they didn't already know and they felt like they'd been cheated. They could get out, but they'd owe the company something like £7,000 which gradually reduced each month over the course of the retainer.

It was a tactic to stem the flow on the revolving door that place had. The weird part is although technically and ethically it's by far the worst place I ever worked, I made so many friends there and the people were truly amazing.

Eight years later I'm still in frequent contact with several of them and we often reminisce and recall the crazy stuff that happened at that strange place on an almost daily basis. Looking back now it's almost comical, like something straight out of a Dilbert nightmare. But the stress at the time was immense.

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