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Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

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Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#312
post #255

Well, there are recreational and performance-enhancing drugs. The attitudes about the two types are different. Coffee, alcohol, nicotine, and pot are all just normalized. Nobody cares. We chat about it in passing (e.g "so Friday I was high....blah blah rest of story"). Coffee is perf-enhancing but people treat it recreationally. The performance stuff is alluded to but not really in any detail. Cocaine, adderall, rita…

White trash drugs? Benzodiazepines, of which kolonopin is one are used by over 15 million people in the US and over 10 in the UK. It's one of the most widely used, widely prescribed categories of drugs and kolonopin one of the top prescribed in the category. And opiates? Who uses opiates who isn't addicted to them? You think being rich gives you a pass on addiction, and chronic pain?

> Who uses opiates who isn't addicted to them? Regularly? likely no one but there are a ton of poeple who use recreationally that aren't addicted.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#313
Adderall, cocaine, caffeine, any number of research stimulants.

disclaimer, I have a long history of drug and alcohol use pre-serious coding, so it wasn’t coding that got me started but it got me off everything but stimulants.

I was going for school for something other than computer science and saw it wasn’t going to get me anywhere. Thusly I turned to adderall and research chemicals to increase my focus and productivity learning to code. I worked all day and night, 7 days a week.

For coding, it worked wonderfully. I was able to learn a tremendous amount in a short time and it opened up many opportunities. However it wreaked havoc on my personal relationships. I didn’t have any friends, I just worked. I became a jerk to my then girlfriend.

My work outside of work and heavy use of stimulants came to a holt when we broke up which led to excessive drug use of all sorts of things from disassocatives to opiates. Eventually I started microdosing LSD and got over it, got back to work.

After college it was hard to find adderall and my research stims of choice weren’t available so I started using cocaine which often tested positive for amphetamines.

I wasn’t using for my day job, I was using on the weekends to have 24 hour coding marathons for side projects + prepping for a new job. Using cocaine was cool for awhile but it led to chronic sinus problems and after a couple months it became more about using all weekend than getting work done. I quit using when I noticed strong urges when I got home on, say, a Tuesday night.

Now I have a prescription for adderall and I take it responsibly. It helps me focus at work and usually take a day off on the weekend or at the least, take a half dose. A couple of weeks ago I didn’t take it at work because I was planning on taking it after to work on side project.

Interestingly enough, I had a hellish day wherein I didn’t get much done and just watched the clock until the end of the day. I was very depressed that night. I felt so bad I didn’t wind up taking it. Instead I laid around and watched TV.

I don’t have any plan to get off of adderall but I find the random drug testing pesky because I like to smoke marijuana to unwind but if I get caught, I get discharged.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#314
Modafinil is surprisingly popular in the nootropics communities. Most people I know have tried piracetam (and other *racetams). I think everyone in tech settles on supplements eventually -- choline, tyrosine, and 5htp. I've had a surprising number of people recommend L-Theanine to me to "take the edge off" stimulants.

If someone is willing to take drugs in the tech sector, they tend to be experimental about it, slowly incrementing their doses and trying research chemicals. Most people come to the conclusion that drugs are too unreliable to use frequently for improving performance and use them as occasional bumps.

People who try cocaine during their professional careers tend to consider it unreliable and dont use it, but those who tried it before their career may continue using it.

Caffeine abuse is pretty common, but rarely makes people more productive, so you see that for about 1-2 years until they realize it's not helping.

Alcohol abuse is really common in high-stress jobs like operations, disenfranchised developers also drink. I don't see many engineers using alcohol as a "social lubricant".

Entheogens (mdma, lsd, 2ci/b, doc/doi, etc) are popular as a party-drug and "social lubricant".

Opioids are under-represented in my experience, probably because their affects dont lead to productivity in tech.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm trying to determine too if all of the drug use in tech is really aimed at enhancing performance/productivity or if it's also used to stave off depression, anxiety or just that feeling so many of us have and have had that we're not doing anything particularly meaningful in our professional work. This is a fascinating possibility, and apparently there's at least one researcher working on exactly that. [1][2] On a…

The emotional blocks to productivity are a very real phenomenon. I've only ever done this once, but I pushed through a really annoying emberjs refactor through Ballmer Peaking overnight.

I completely agree. When I'm unhappy with my productivity, part of my self-assessment involves taking a careful look at my emotional state and seeing if there's anything there that isn't compatible with the calm/attentive/enthusiastic/alert combination where I do my best work. And if I turn something up, I either switch tasks, take some time off, or try to resolve the impediment one way or another.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#316
post #59

Wow, this discussion is mindblowing. Working in software dev for 20 years, in Germany, and I have never seen any developer taking any stimulants. But maybe this is because only my first job was at a young startup, and I quickly learned that working 24/7 just isn't for me and I need a more stable environment. Today, the way whalesalad and others describe the effect of Adderall sounds interesting to me, but I would nev…

You need to reply to the comment by Blahah who thinks literally every developer in Germany is high all the time. I think people who do drugs just gravitate to other people that do drugs. For me, the limiting factor on my productivity is not how god-like my mental state is, it's whether I can get the info I need from that guy on the other team or when the project manager will sign off on a needed change :)

I live in Germany and can confirm that almost every German acquaintance I have who are in my age(27 have been here since 22) and work in tech has smoked or actively smokes marijuana. According to them it is "no big deal". Both men and women. I worked at an employer in the Cybersecurity industry, many potheads as well, openly so. At that employer there were around 60 people counting the secretaries. I know, for a fact, that at least 10(one woman, a couple of the men with anxiety issues and depression) smoked marijuana, at least one did coke and all had the typical "drink booze till you pass out" German attitude.

Take my anectdata with a grain of salt.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a no such thing as a free lunch theory, but for drugs There's some reason to believe this is literally true - and true in the same sense as the economic rule! In this context, it's been nicknamed the Algernon argument. Gwern (of course) has the canonical writeup.[1] The short version is: "if some chemical change could make us smarter, why wouldn't it already been in place?" Or, framed differently, "why would the br…

> why would the brain evolve to benefit from a chemical it doesn't normally have? You could apply the same logic to Aspirin or any medicine - if reducing swelling was beneficial, why doesn't our body do it for us? That seems like a misunderstanding of evolution. It's not a master plan driving toward perfection. Our biology is a bag of traits, some of which were useful and some of which just haven't been selected out…

I think it applies to aspirin too. You thin your blood, reduce some swelling. You feel better. But maybe you don't heal as quickly. Instead of being immobile and allowing resources to gather at the wound we get back to our work. But our work is leisurely these days and we probably don't need to heal quickly.

Perhaps if you are a runner and you take these seemingly benign medicines to reduce pain and swelling, you end up causing more permanent damage by continuing to run when you should not (I have experienced this).

I think a lot of medicines work by turning off or on processes that are important but inconvenient at the time. Painkillers are probably the best example. We shouldn't take them when we are healthy, it would be dangerous. Other medicines, such as antibiotics, work by killing pathogens directly and don't affect our bodies like the drugs in this discussion.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#318

Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…

This sounds kind of in line with the theory that drugs are kind of a zero-sum game. You got a lot of speed earlier on and achieved a ton, but then paid for it later on. Kind of like a, "no such thing as a free lunch" economic theory, but for drugs! Not to knock you or your methods, just an observation.

The analogy I like to use is "buying on credit" - you can choose the time and place of your enhanced productivity, but you pay for it later, with interest. You're not actually creating any new productivity, just shifting it around.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#319
post #84

I would be careful of overestimating the amount of stimulant use based on comments and emails here. People who use a lot of stimulants tend to love talking about themselves and often have a belief that anyone successful must be taking stimulants secretly. It plays into the motivation of most stimulant users which is that the stimulants have given them a special cheat code in life. I worked in construction in my young…

When I was much younger I was exposed to a variety of different drug users. Everything you said is 100% spot on with anyone that abused drugs.

I've come to learn that there a few different kinds of drug users.

The first are the users who have not yet had to face the reality of drugs or how drugs affect them personally, even if they are suffering consequences from use. The mental gymnastics at play serve to protect and prolong drug use. I see this all the time with white-collar and middle-class users. They may have to take drugs to function, will crash, lose sleep, have mood swings and resultant relationship problems, but it all gets rationalized away because they have a job and aren't homeless yet.

You'll see things like projection, minimization, rationalization, denial, shifting blame and intellectualization used to defend, deflect and justify drug use.

Another type stays rational about drugs, despite how easy it is to let the honeymoon period trick them into believing that there are only positives and no downsides. They don't tend to lean on the psychological defenses mentioned above. They also tend not to abuse drugs chronically or end up dependent.

The final type, if they haven't died, has been kicked in the ass by drug use and was forced to be brutally honest about it. They might still use, but they know they have a problem, or they might be sober.

If you see a person talking about drug use as if there are no downsides, only positives, you are probably witnessing someone who belongs to the first camp.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#320

Temporary account for obvious reasons, feel free to direct message me, if you'd like to discuss in further detail. I apologize for the length of the post in advance :) Most of my experiences are filtered through the lens of working at companies in the SF Bay Area, with "a good work-life balance". This is effectively code for "we recognize that the work week is approximately 9-5 or 10-6, Monday-Friday". California has…

As an additional comment about the 'white-collar' aspect of things...

It's worth reinforcing the state of the job market for successful software engineers, and how that relates to drug use.

I try to be productive at work, but ultimately, I'm not very stressed about financial matters or job security. After starting my career, I've never been without employment for more than a month, and almost never without it being my choice. I also have a substantial safety buffer.

With those factors, I'm able to have a comfortable and relatively worry-free life with my partner, and besides a bit of recreational fun, I don't really feel a need for escape from my life.

I have a bit of an addictive and depressive personality, and I could see myself abusing substances in a different life situation.

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