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Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#301

Post by demosito666 »

smt88 wrote: post #296
demosito666 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems just crazy, is there really an example of this? Does this also mean that if a programmer will write a song at weekend, his employer will have the copyright? Because I see no difference.

> Does this also mean that if a programmer will write a song at weekend, his employer will have the copyright? The example I knew about was something that could plausibly have been done using the university's resources, but it wasn't. While it does seem crazy, a common legal practice is to create incredibly rigid, selfish policies and then decide later if it's worth enforcing them. I was often told as an undergrad th…

> something that could plausibly have been done using the university's resources

Yeah, but parent here states that even if an employee wasn't using any employer's resources, the rights are still belong to the latter. Which is a whole other level of insanity.

On an unrelated note, university owning any work of a student, regardless on how it was done (unless it was explicitly contracted with the uni), is also pretty grim, but this is probably US thing.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#302

Post by zwaps »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #241
amiga_500 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Why do Americans consider themselves free?

it's the same in UK, EU and Australian law.

No it is not.

In Germany, you need to make a new contract with explicit payment

https://www.urheberrecht-leipzig.de/urheberrecht-nutzungsrec...

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#303

Post by zwaps »

codyguy wrote: post #194
munmaek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such clauses would get immediately thrown out.

even if it's explicitly stated in the contract and the employee has agreed to it? Why would it get thrown out?

Depends on where you are. In the EU, parts of contracts that sre against the law, which includes labor without payment, are invalid and you are free to sign it.

In this case, giving up IP you made in your free time requires a new contract, because the law also requires a purchasing contract to have clear parameters

https://www.urheberrecht-leipzig.de/urheberrecht-nutzungsrec...

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#304

Post by ThePhysicist »

mdni007 wrote: post #139
ThePhysicist wrote: post #118

It’s not really possible to give specific advice without knowing which jurisdiction you’re in. In most European countries there are laws that govern employee inventions and grant a share of the profits of an invention to the employee (in Germany e.g. the Mitarbeitererfindungsgesetz). Besides advising you to talk to a lawyer - which people already did here - there’s really little to say without knowing more details. I…

Did you type out that entire German word without referring to Google?

It's basically just three words without spaces: Mitarbeiter-Erfindung(s)-Gesetz (employee-invention-law). The 's' is used to join the words. No dictionary needed :)

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#305

Post by mch82 »

ghaff wrote: post #232
mch82 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically a combo of GPL and taking community contributions without having them assign copyright to you is the most full proof way to keep something open source. Sorry, but your advice is refuted by research. Both GNU and Apache ask developers to sign contributor licensing agreements. For Apache, see “ASF Contributor Agreements”, https://www.apache.org/licenses/contributor-agreements.html . For GNU, see “Copyright…

Opinions differ on CLAs. There are certainly arguments for them as laid out in that article. There are also arguments against them in many cases, including that they create friction for new contributors. "Oh, I have to sign this agreement which means talking to my company's legal staff? I think I'll just pass." The parent is also probably right that GPL with no CLA makes it much harder to change a project's license.…

Thank you for the citation. I’ve added that episode (and the rest) to my listening queue & look forward to your other episodes too. Looks like a cool podcast!

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#306

Post by CoderCV »

As a company owner, as soon as I read, "I've developed it on my own time but the product directly relates to what my employer does"

> "Directly relates to what my employer does"

You will face multiple charges. You have no IDEA - how brutal it can be in court. In 99% case - You will fail mostly because - you built your company competitor while working in a company that is more likely to become your future competitor if court grants you your right. This will break 99.999% company of the world. In many of the employee contracts - Some/Most of the Company has a clause that - you won't be working for the next 18 months or any X months in a company or product that is directly their competitor.

My Suggestion as a company, "Be Polite to your BOSS and tell them every truth on why you built", "what provoked you building something like this outside of the company", "How would you like to see yourself in next 10 year".

If your company is really "p* off", Max, they will do is, they will stop some future promotion and would most likely keep you away from most of their work, they will remain alert on your every step and would call a lawyer to inform you a certain thing, for which they don't have to bear the cost of fighting court case at the end, company saving money.

============= THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN LITTLE DIFFERENT ########

If you would not have built anything related to what your employer does or what your company does.

###########

Imagine you have company and you hired some employee. Now all or some or one of them has build something related to exactly what your company does, how would you handle?

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#307

Post by smt88 »

demosito666 wrote: post #301
smt88 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does this also mean that if a programmer will write a song at weekend, his employer will have the copyright? The example I knew about was something that could plausibly have been done using the university's resources, but it wasn't. While it does seem crazy, a common legal practice is to create incredibly rigid, selfish policies and then decide later if it's worth enforcing them. I was often told as an undergrad th…

> something that could plausibly have been done using the university's resources Yeah, but parent here states that even if an employee wasn't using any employer's resources, the rights are still belong to the latter. Which is a whole other level of insanity. On an unrelated note, university owning any work of a student, regardless on how it was done (unless it was explicitly contracted with the uni), is also pretty g…

University's owning research is a major funding mechanism, and it's how they justify paying graduate researchers.

There are limits to how much the university can profit from the IP, and the student researchers still get to profit too.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#309

Post by awillen »

fao_ wrote: post #279
ownagefool wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)

> In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. In the UK you're entitled to 1 hour of free legal aid, so it's hardly expensive to consult with one who can direct you to the right person and place.

That really depends on how you define "lawyering up" - I'm not saying he should hire a lawyer and run all communications with his company through the lawyer moving forward. I'm just saying have a conversation with someone who understands the legal issues at hand here, then make an educated decision on how to proceed. He can always still have a friendly negotiation with his company after talking to a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#310

Post by awillen »

thayne wrote: post #72
batoure wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always always always talk to a lawyer. If your dog walker (at the peak of their career) friend was like “I need a website” you wouldn’t be like “learn JavaScript” you would say find a programmer. If I had 10 dollars for every time I had to spend weeks convincing an engineer friend to talk to an attorney and then when they finally did it got dealt with in 30 minutes... Lawyers are just “full stack law architects” do y…

I find kneejerk advice to consult lawyers for anything that concerns the law frustrating for two reasons: 1. It never seems to be accompanied with advice on how to find the appropriate kind of lawyer. 2. It almost always seems to ignore the fact that lawyers are expensive. Sure, there are times when that cost is warranted, but I don't think it is right to ignore it. For example, in this case, it is probably only wort…

The problem is the programmer thing just isn't comparable - knowing a little bit about the law isn't like knowing a little bit about web development. No one who is not a lawyer has the ability to get qualified to handle legal issues within the time frame they would need to for a legal issue at hand. Beyond that, with legal issues, you can't take back your mistakes - if you get armchair legal advice and it turns out to be bad, you've probably irreparably harmed your prospects in the negotiation/case. If you mess up web development, it's not a big deal.

The cost argument is a fair one, and I think that's worth considering. In this case, though, OP has indicated that this is a project that he feels has some amount of value, so it's worth spending $300-500 for a consultation with a lawyer. I'd try to look at it from an expected value perspective - even if paying $500 only has a small chance of improving the outcome of your negotiation/case, if the value of the thing you're negotiating over is $25000, it's worth spending. If the value of the thing is $600, then don't bother.

In terms of finding a lawyer, upcounsel.com, avvo.com or referrals from friends are good places to go.

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