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Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

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Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#31

Post by gbog »

loumf wrote: post #17
thomasahle wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think got most of it, but I missed the connection between "people who are sexually attractive to you" and "people who are uncomfortable with glamour photos of models". Or is "people who are sexually attractive to you" just a lawyer term for "people of a sex you might want to have sex with"?

It doesn't matter if you are attracted to them or their gender and it doesn't matter if they are offended. Having a calendar of models in swimsuits is not going to fly. The rule must be something else. But, honestly, if you think you might not understand where the line is, get a cat poster and be done with it.

Looks weird to me that a swimsuit poster on my desk is not ok but deep hypnotizing cleavage and ten meters radius feminine perfume is.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#32

Post by njloof »

noir_lord wrote: post #10
tzs wrote: post #9

There is an important difference between tech companies and many other kinds of workplaces. Tech has a greater tendency to consume people outside of work. Many go home from a day of programming, and relax by programming open source or hobby projects. They want to socialize with other tech people, because tech is their life. Most other lines of work don't seem to spill out as much from the office, and people in them s…

> Sometimes I think tech companies should set up some kind of internal dating or matchmaking site, and establish a rule that if an employee is interested in exploring romantic or sexual relationships with coworkers, they have to go through that site. I feel a great disturbance in the force as if a million lawyers cried out in horror/glee and where at once silenced.

We can call the app "Lawyr". Swipe left to quietly leave the company, swipe right to sue.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#33

Post by pekk »

randallsquared wrote: post #15
cjbprime wrote: post #3

My two cents: As you point out in the question, you're never going to receive a set of rules that you just have to follow like a checklist, because the same behaviors can be consensual and encouraged between one pair of people, and non-consensual and creepy between another pair of people. That's normal. The only definitive rule is: don't hurt people. If you hurt someone, even in a small way -- and you will -- apologi…

> you're never going to receive a set of rules that you just have to follow like a checklist, because the same behaviors can be consensual and encouraged between one pair of people, and non-consensual and creepy between another pair of people. That's normal. And awful. That's one reason that this problem looms larger in technical circles: we're already far more likely than the average to be socially awkward or otherw…

Whether they are socially awkward or not, I don't think it's fair to say that technical people are more prone than others to sexual harassment (or rape, for that matter).

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#34

Post by pekk »

gbog wrote: post #31
loumf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you are attracted to them or their gender and it doesn't matter if they are offended. Having a calendar of models in swimsuits is not going to fly. The rule must be something else. But, honestly, if you think you might not understand where the line is, get a cat poster and be done with it.

Looks weird to me that a swimsuit poster on my desk is not ok but deep hypnotizing cleavage and ten meters radius feminine perfume is.

Do you feel that you are sexually harassed if there are women in the workplace who are not wearing hijab?

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#35

Post by danellis »

zem wrote: post #25
trhway wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored. it is your internal interpretation. It may be true or may be not. The point here is that actions - specifically eyes movements - of one persons are supposed to be judged based on interpretation by…

so here's one concrete thing you can do - when a woman says she can tell that someone is staring at her boobs (versus just happening to be looking in that direction), believe her! don't immediately start looking for all the reasons she might be mistaken.

In think the person doing the looking has a better idea of what they're looking at than another person.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#36

Post by yuvadam »

Guideline #1: Be an ally. [1] [2] [3] [4]

There are no more guidelines.

[1] - http://www.scn.org/friends/ally.html

[2] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/things-allies-need-to-kn...

[3] - http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Allies

[4] - http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Resources_for_allies

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#37

Post by Spooky23 »

Not an attorney or HR person, but I've led groups with up to about 100 people. You can't write such a guide because you need to take into account the perceptions of the people who you work with.

End of the day, you should always proceed with caution when establishing out of work relationships with co-workers of the opposite sex. You should not engage in romantic or sexual relationships with coworkers.

The risk in both situations is that you're potentially (and unwittingly) creating a workplace perceived as hostile or rigged. Many people are hesitant to confront issues Tha bother them when it involves the person who is banging the boss.

Other things to consider:

- HR is not your friend. They are there to protect the company from you. If you need a confidant, talk t a therapist or trusted friend.

- There are plenty of nutjobs out there, and one of them may decide that you are the source of their misery. If you run into this, keep a written log of interactions with the person.

- Most problems can be avoided by listening to others and treating people with respect.

- If you are a supervisor and learn of an issue, deal with it immediately.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#38

Post by [deleted] »

tbrownaw wrote: post #18

The office I work at has several married couples. Some of who have been working there together since before they became couples. Some are at significantly different levels in the corporate hierarchy. Supposedly there is or was one person who "reports" to someone that has nothing to do with their day-to-day work or the rest of their team, because otherwise they'd be (indirectly, a couple levels apart) reporting to the…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#39

Post by munificent »

mvarner wrote: post #7
trhway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. in a 3D Euclidean space where do the person is supposed to be looking at? Staring all the time down into the table? Up into the ceiling? Close the eyes every time while moving eyes from ceiling to the table? I'm asking just out of curiousity as personally i just stare either into ceiling…

I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.

> people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored

One thing that makes this challenging is that most men don't know what it's like to be looked at. It's obvious to you because you've likely been a recipient of lots of different kinds of gazes throughout your life and, for better or worse, are calibrated to be able to rank them.

But people almost never look at men. When you're a man, people look you in the eye (but not too much) and that's it. Unless you're a model, abs rippling in the wind as you effortlessly chop lumber, you're never the recipient of any kind of gaze.

This makes it harder to know what a "good" or "bad" look feels like since many men have never experienced either.

Of course, this doesn't justify at all a man giving someone a look that makes them uncomfortable.

But when I hear women say, "Yeah, he gave me this creepy stare," I sure as hell don't want to be that guy, but... I also don't really know how to tell if I am either.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#40

Post by zem »

danellis wrote: post #35
zem wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so here's one concrete thing you can do - when a woman says she can tell that someone is staring at her boobs (versus just happening to be looking in that direction), believe her! don't immediately start looking for all the reasons she might be mistaken.

In think the person doing the looking has a better idea of what they're looking at than another person.

yes, but i think someone with a lifetime of picking up on subliminal cues has a better idea of who is staring at her than an uninvolved third party
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