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Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

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Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#31

Post by alecco »

puppetaccount wrote: post #28
alecco wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool. > My cofounder is a solid guy. I would trust him with my life. Good guys can mess things up unintentionally. Consequences on things this big can affect your life forever. > Unfortunately we don't have a lot of money and what money we do, we would prefer to pay our handful of employees with. We are not profitable. If you are in US there have to be several organizations to give you free advice on similar matters.…

The point about organizations is a good one. I will look them up. The advice to be very careful is also on the money. I appreciate it and will do so. Certainly, one of the things worrying me is that he might not be alone. Hope your situation turned out o.k.

Thanks. Yeah, it turned out well. It was a good eye opening experience for me, personally. It's the way to learn many things. And what doesn't kill you...

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#32

Post by lucifer »

jhg wrote: post #27

Welcome to the real world, Neo. Kickbacks is what drives business deals in many countries, including the US, Canada and you name it. That's an integral part of business culture. In some places to a lesser degree, in some - to greater. Government contracts are especially lucrative type of deals, and I would very surprised if you somehow waltzed in from the street without any prior connections and got a contract. You h…

"Just say, no, can't do and walk away."

Yes, but talk to a lawyer first before talking to ANYONE else.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#33

Post by puppetaccount »

lucifer wrote: post #29
dasht wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't screw around. You've described yourself as the sole witness the commission of a serious crime. Passivity and/or trying to resolve this "politely" in back channels can bite you by making you an accomplice. If it really was as bad as you describe - your next call should be to the FBI and you should prepare for that by writing down every detail you remember, as carefully and accurately as you can.

Isn't he better off just walking away from this (and yes OP: forget the sale)? Per his own account here, he (a) discussed potential issues with "hiding" the kickback, and (b) tentatively agreed to discuss the possibility with his "by the book" partner. I am not questioning your righteous outrage here, but this is a can of worms if there ever was one. And I'm just guessing that the sleaze ball in DC acted that way bec…

Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he rattled off a bunch of ways he could hide it and I responded by asking him to check the legality of it. To any sane person the message that I did not want to do this would have been obvious. The fact that he ignored it tells me that he thought he could bulldoze me into paying him (because he does not seem dumb).

What I precisely told him, and I was careful about this, was that he should investigate the legality of doing this and I would discuss the same with my by the book partner. I wasn't clear about his in the original text, but my survival instincts did kick in and I remember telling him this precisely.

Further thinking has left me wondering how he would have responded to a simple "Sorry buddy, don't take it personally but we can't do that. How's the steak?". It may have been the better thing to do. But if he had continued bulldozing it would have ended up in a similar place.

As an aside, I have never paid even for a coffee for a government employee who is a potential customer. It is not that I do not know the rules. I just wish I had been more familiar with the playground and had thought about what I would do in a situation like this beforehand. Hopefully this will serve as an opportunity to do that for other entrepreneurs who read this.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#35

Post by lucifer »

puppetaccount wrote: post #33
lucifer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't he better off just walking away from this (and yes OP: forget the sale)? Per his own account here, he (a) discussed potential issues with "hiding" the kickback, and (b) tentatively agreed to discuss the possibility with his "by the book" partner. I am not questioning your righteous outrage here, but this is a can of worms if there ever was one. And I'm just guessing that the sleaze ball in DC acted that way bec…

Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he rattled off a bunch of ways he could hide it and I responded by asking him to check the legality of it. To any sane person the message that I did not want to do this would have been obvious. The fact that he ignored it tells me that he thought he could bulldoze me…

You have my sincere sympathies (and I have no clue what I would have done in your shoes; its one of those moments where clarity arrives in hindsight and self-kicking ensues and we've all been there) but you entered the spider's web as soon as you met with him outside of his office. He knew exactly what he was doing; you didn't.

Live and learn.

But lets be honest here: "Please check the legality of your proposed hiding of your proposal for our paying you to be our secret consultant and meanwhile I'll run this by my by the book partner"? (And I'm just a (sympathetic) fellow geek on HN; I'm trying to make a point regarding careless escalation of this matter beyond anonymous posts on HN ...)

It is imperative that you consult a lawyer regarding this matter even if you and your partner's intent is to simply drop the sale cold, walk away, and cut your loses; call the FBI; go on Oprah; whatever.

Get legal advice and mum's the word until you do.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#36

Post by puppetaccount »

lucifer wrote: post #35
puppetaccount wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he rattled off a bunch of ways he could hide it and I responded by asking him to check the legality of it. To any sane person the message that I did not want to do this would have been obvious. The fact that he ignored it tells me that he thought he could bulldoze me…

You have my sincere sympathies (and I have no clue what I would have done in your shoes; its one of those moments where clarity arrives in hindsight and self-kicking ensues and we've all been there) but you entered the spider's web as soon as you met with him outside of his office. He knew exactly what he was doing; you didn't. Live and learn. But lets be honest here: "Please check the legality of your proposed hidin…

Will do. I will say that I am not proud of my rather meek response and that guilt is a large part of why I posted here.

Thanks for your advice.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#37

Post by dkokelley »

My only non-professional advice is do not in any way do business with the firm he works with until after the situation is dealt with. Even if you get the contract through normal channels, it could blow up in your face later if this guy was found out. Report it, and get a record of you reporting it. That way, if anything happens, you can pull out your record and say 'we already reported this'.

Also, assuming this is a US department, this site may be the way to go: http://www.gao.gov/fraudnet/fraudnet.htm

I'm not sure if it's how you report bribe solicitors, but if it isn't I'm sure there are similar government sites set up for that. Good luck. I don't envy your situation.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#38

Post by raffi »

Wow. Just wow. I don't know what agency/department you're dealing with and I'm making an assumption that you're in the US.

Try searching for "fraud, waste, and abuse" and your agency's name in Google. If you're dealing with the DoD, try these folks:

http://www.dodig.mil/HOTLINE/fwacompl.htm

Not sure if this falls under FWA but if you talk to someone at the IG (Inspector General) office, they'll point you in the right direction.

The other option is to go to your boss and see how your company wants to handle this.

Re: Ask HN: How have you dealt with corruption?

#39

Post by puppetaccount »

raffi wrote: post #38

Wow. Just wow. I don't know what agency/department you're dealing with and I'm making an assumption that you're in the US. Try searching for "fraud, waste, and abuse" and your agency's name in Google. If you're dealing with the DoD, try these folks: http://www.dodig.mil/HOTLINE/fwacompl.htm Not sure if this falls under FWA but if you talk to someone at the IG (Inspector General) office, they'll point you in the right…

No boss. This is my company. Have a cofounder who knows.

Appreciate the links.

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