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Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

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Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#31

Post by lowboy »

scurvy wrote: post #10
dvcc wrote: post #3

The US web is not really censored. DMCA is not censorship and COPPA is a violation of federal law for various reasons.

It is true that the US doesn't have a national framework for censoring the Internet. However, it does exist in patchwork form on an ISP level. Every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful. A lot of times, there's confusion and a lot of innocent sites are caught up in the mix due to name based virtual hosting in webservers. Some would argue that anti-spam blacklists and droplists are ce…

As dvcc said, please substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful".

I don't have any love for North American ISPs, but I loathe FUD.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#32

Post by contingencies »

johnnydoebk wrote: post #21
contingencies wrote: post #2

Maybe Bhutan.

It is not possible to censor what does not exist, right?

I don't know, but I'd assume Bhutanese monks probably excel at similar types of deep philosphical inquiry. Perhaps they even have cats, and the internet has nothing to offer them?

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#33

Post by scurvy »

dvcc wrote: post #14
scurvy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that the US doesn't have a national framework for censoring the Internet. However, it does exist in patchwork form on an ISP level. Every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful. A lot of times, there's confusion and a lot of innocent sites are caught up in the mix due to name based virtual hosting in webservers. Some would argue that anti-spam blacklists and droplists are ce…

I have not come across anything that was censored by my ISP in anyway. Only one such case was cited on Wikipedia, were Verizon blocked text messages due to a violation of ToS. Could you provide any more information on ISPs blocking content?

Comcast has an abuse block list. Verizon has an abuse block list.

Between those two you've got > 50% of America covered.

Every ISP has a spam blocklist. Technically that's censorship, too.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#34

Post by scurvy »

lowboy wrote: post #31
scurvy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that the US doesn't have a national framework for censoring the Internet. However, it does exist in patchwork form on an ISP level. Every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful. A lot of times, there's confusion and a lot of innocent sites are caught up in the mix due to name based virtual hosting in webservers. Some would argue that anti-spam blacklists and droplists are ce…

As dvcc said, please substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful". I don't have any love for North American ISPs, but I loathe FUD.

It's not FUD. I've had a few IP's end up on Comcast's nullroute list. It's pretty visible from their looking glass.

BTW, appreciate all the downvotes from the kiddies who have never heard of NANOG, let alone actually been to meeting.

Appreciate the lecture about FUD from a foreigner who knows nothing about our market.

Canada filters, too. Hello Rogers and Telus.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#35

Post by lowboy »

scurvy wrote: post #34
lowboy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As dvcc said, please substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP censors and filters websites and IP's it deems to be harmful". I don't have any love for North American ISPs, but I loathe FUD.

It's not FUD. I've had a few IP's end up on Comcast's nullroute list. It's pretty visible from their looking glass. BTW, appreciate all the downvotes from the kiddies who have never heard of NANOG, let alone actually been to meeting. Appreciate the lecture about FUD from a foreigner who knows nothing about our market. Canada filters, too. Hello Rogers and Telus.

Until you can substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP" censoring, it's FUD.

I don't have any evidence that my ISP (Shaw) or the other major Canadian ISPs don't censor. But you haven't presented any evidence that they do, nor have you presented any evidence to support your claim for just the major US ISPs.

And there's no need for the ad hominem, friendo. It just weakens your position.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#36

Post by scurvy »

lowboy wrote: post #35
scurvy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not FUD. I've had a few IP's end up on Comcast's nullroute list. It's pretty visible from their looking glass. BTW, appreciate all the downvotes from the kiddies who have never heard of NANOG, let alone actually been to meeting. Appreciate the lecture about FUD from a foreigner who knows nothing about our market. Canada filters, too. Hello Rogers and Telus.

Until you can substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP" censoring, it's FUD. I don't have any evidence that my ISP (Shaw) or the other major Canadian ISPs don't censor. But you haven't presented any evidence that they do, nor have you presented any evidence to support your claim for just the major US ISPs. And there's no need for the ad hominem, friendo. It just weakens your position.

We were talking initially about US ISP's, then you mentioned North America so I figured I'd throw in my experiences with Telus and Rogers. That wasn't an ad hominem attack. I was pointing out that you have no direct experience dealing with large US ISP's and their blocklists.

How am I supposed to substantiate my claims? What do you want as evidence? Do you want me to post email threads or something? No way.

Do you know how a looking glass works? It's pretty easy to find blocked IP's using Comcast's.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#37

Post by scurvy »

lowboy wrote: post #35
scurvy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not FUD. I've had a few IP's end up on Comcast's nullroute list. It's pretty visible from their looking glass. BTW, appreciate all the downvotes from the kiddies who have never heard of NANOG, let alone actually been to meeting. Appreciate the lecture about FUD from a foreigner who knows nothing about our market. Canada filters, too. Hello Rogers and Telus.

Until you can substantiate your claims inre: "every major ISP" censoring, it's FUD. I don't have any evidence that my ISP (Shaw) or the other major Canadian ISPs don't censor. But you haven't presented any evidence that they do, nor have you presented any evidence to support your claim for just the major US ISPs. And there's no need for the ad hominem, friendo. It just weakens your position.

BTW, every ISP in Canada uses CleanFeed.

https://www.cybertip.ca/app/en/projects-cleanfeed

Technically that's censorship. Censorship I can live with, but it is censorship on a national scale. Every other Canadian ISP maintains a block list, but hey you won't believe me unless I produce a sworn affadvit from the security personnel of each ISP.

Re: Ask HN: is there still a country without web censorship?

#38

Post by snowwrestler »

I think it's important to be clear about what you mean by the word "censorship."

Generally it's considered to be a restriction on freedom of expression by a system of legal authority. Generally it is not thought to include matters of private choice and contracts, even if the sanctity of those contracts are enforced by the system of authority.

The U.S. has a system of law that permits people to control the distribution of their expressions. Tool can decide they don't want their music distributed by iTunes, and the government will enforce that decision. But it's not censorship because iTunes is not expressing any original thought by selling digital copies of Tool's albums. And Tool themselves are free to post their own music online with no restriction.

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