31–40 of 46 posts
I made God's Temple. I am the best programmer on the planet. I have divine intellect.
God says... I_don't_care Oh_Hell_No wont_you_be_my_neighbor do_it so_let_it_be_written so_let_it_be_written that's_much_better I'll_think_about_it that's_all_folks dance ouch so_let_it_be_written quit_it unemployment be_quiet_bird thats_laughable fabulous
Software development jobs tend not to care what you majored in if you can demonstrate competency and experience. Your average CS senior is a VERY junior programmer. Also "math / engineering" is usually good enough to bypass the HR "must have degree" wall at companies where that pertains - at least to the point that you have the same chance anyone does to pitch them on interviewing you. Things you can do that beat "sw…
As pathetic as it sounds, I don't really know what my goal is. I guess I want to find an internship this summer that is enjoyable and offers solid exit opportunities for full-time recruiting. I know this is a lot to ask for, but I want to highlight the fact that I work very hard -- I'm not some kid that thinks he's smart and deserves a perfect job. The biggest problem is I know absolutely nothing about the recruiting…
College, and much of your 20's and even 30's, is the time where you figure stuff out. Try business/banking - don't like it? Try web development. Don't like it? Switch to something else. And then when you're 47 years old you'll realize that you want to change again - and you'll do it too.
Of course that's far easier said than done; I'm not trying to tell you switching is easy, it's not, but I am trying to tell you that you're not locked in to any one path.
I've interviewed and hired quite a bit, and I can tell you that any programming internship is a good internship. Having some real world experience is good, even if I've never heard of the company you interned at.
Your conclusion is probably true. Though I didn't go to a "top public school," I followed a similar path and had a similar concern at about the same point in my path through college. I should've chosen otherwise, but instead I chose to finish my economics degree and find a job working for a bank. I can assure you that there are plenty of good jobs working for banks all across the country. Sure, they may not be the el…
Thanks for the advice. It seems as our paths are very similar. To be honest, my biggest interests are in statistics, programming, and finance (in that order). The most natural intersection seemed to be working at a proprietary trading firm. Unfortunately, I applied to over 25 prop shops with no success. I haven't heard of a single alumni from my school in trading; they typically only hire out of MIT, Harvard, Stanfor…
I've been in a somewhat similar situation, although later in my life (left a top 15 math grad program, unsure about what to transition into). If you want to get into software development, just start learning it! It doesn't matter if you're not initially at the top - you should have confidence in your ability to learn quick, and your solid logic/problem solving skills, which are musts in software engineering.
You have a massive advantage over me - I deferred answering this question until I left my PhD program, and took about 1 1/2 years to answer it fully. Less than a year of working in web development, I transitioned from being a junior dev to a senior dev. You can easily set yourself on a faster path since you have time on your side.
Also, keep in mind that there are many companies out there that you likely don't know about. Most companies that recruit from colleges are big. That's not the case most of the time in the real world though - the big companies are just the ones who have the resources to recruit from colleges themselves. The majority are looking locally for talent. Networking is the name of the game, so going to meetup groups (especially meetup.com) for what you're interested in is an easy way to net a payoff in getting interviews, especially if you can sell your credentials to people - if you have to fly to cities & have the $ to do so, it would be well worth the investment.
Just my two cents anyhow.
just because I'm not emailing/cold-calling 3 investment bankers a day
Then email 3 investment bankers a day. You should be able to do this without spending more than a few minutes on each one.
Create a template once and then personalise it as needed. In my current startup, we've emailed many hundreds of people over the past four weeks. It doesn't have to take a lot of time. It absolutely can be done without being such a chore to eat too much into your other time. Also, if you cannot do three a day then do two or even one. Or even one every two days. Anything is better than none a day.
I feel like I'm better suited for a startup, but I'm afraid of risking a safe / prestigious job ...
Unfortunately, in my opinion, startup and risk aversion do not mix well. Startups are risky - that's simply the reality of it. If you are risk averse, then startups absolutely are not for you.
Founding a startup is a hell of a lot of risk (its still worth it IMHO though) and being one of the first few employees, while not quite as risky, is still a lot of risk because you don't know if your job will still be there in a few months or a year.
Personally, I think the startup experience is worth it. I can't see myself working anywhere else now. But its definitely not for everyone, so consider it carefully.
---
Having said that, you can absolutely get into software development, but if you want to have lots of options you will want to build a network here too. Life is all about networking. I don't think its quite as drastic as having to email three people a day though - I'd start by attending lots of programming user group meetups and conferences - that's where a large portion of my network came from.
I know people who have never studied at all who are doing great - the key to their success is that they have good strong github profiles: you will have a degree from a good school, if you can also create a portfolio of projects (personal or open source) then you will be in a really good place. Its not necessary, but its very helpful. If you can get a summer internship, that also helps a lot. Basically, anything that demonstrates experience writing code (outside of uni projects...) is a very good thing.
If you fall and screw up, its ok.. get up and do it again. Time to grow up
Software development jobs tend not to care what you majored in if you can demonstrate competency and experience. Your average CS senior is a VERY junior programmer. Also "math / engineering" is usually good enough to bypass the HR "must have degree" wall at companies where that pertains - at least to the point that you have the same chance anyone does to pitch them on interviewing you. Things you can do that beat "sw…
As pathetic as it sounds, I don't really know what my goal is. I guess I want to find an internship this summer that is enjoyable and offers solid exit opportunities for full-time recruiting. I know this is a lot to ask for, but I want to highlight the fact that I work very hard -- I'm not some kid that thinks he's smart and deserves a perfect job. The biggest problem is I know absolutely nothing about the recruiting…
You don't have to know what you want to do with the rest of your life. But my advice to you is to pick something and go hard for it. Don't worry about whether you're making the right choice. Just make sure that whatever path you take, it's something you're going to learn and grow from. The only way you can lose is by not making an affirmative decision on your current direction. You're young as hell, there's plenty of time to pivot. How do you know when to pivot? When you have ceased to meet new people, learn new things about yourself, build new skills, and enjoy yourself.
I could be 8 years into some career job right now. Maybe I missed out on an opportunity to really press my claim in some particular direction. I don't think so though, because instead, I've lived in 8 different states, seen several different career paths, met fascinating people, built soft and hard skills, and learned an incredible amount about myself and what I value.
If you want to be a programmer, you can take some advanced level MOOC classes today. Overcommit yourself to it for a little bit, beyond your coursework. You can try to fix a bug in an open source product you use. You can volunteer your time for a startup in your area, and try to learn the ropes. Just start building. If you can make it clear that you're the type of person that will dive in head first to a tough problem and find a way to scrap together a solution, you will put yourself in demand in the tech world.
Good luck, and feel free to email me if you need any advice.
a) those of us who are good at it have spent years and years at it
b)the field keeps evolving at a rapid pace. Yesterday, it was Java and XML and SQL. Today, it's Ruby, cloud, and Docker. It's a pain in the ass to keep up unless you are genuinely interested, or carefully find an evergreen niche, or a gig at Google which will compensate for not staying sharp.
c) remote jobs are on the increase. I am the happy employer of an IT person in India who wants a non-traditional job (he wants to work only half a day), but has 10+ years of experience, is fairly intelligent (has a mathematical conjecture to his name), has worked in Lisp, has a degree in AI, and works for $833 per month. All the brouhaha about the H-1B visa is direly misplaced; the tournament is on the other court : outsourcing via remote employment. There are a ridiculous number of job sites that advertise remote jobs, and a good number of employers are able to get themselves to trust remote employees enough to reap the cost benefits. In IT, you compete with the world, literally. In traditional banking and other "locale specific" / seat-warmer-is-a-must jobs, you probably only compete with the rest of the folks in your city.
d) The barriers to entry to a programming job are falling every single day. Previously, having a degree was a must. Now, you could be a dropout with great self-taught Ruby on Rails skills, and you're in. This is a positive IMHO; people in programming are much more ready to break convention and I'm proud to be part of such an industry. I have tried to help a couple of waiters and electronics salesmen transition to a programming career, too. But it means that the field is that much more competitive, too.
Sorry to sound negative; I really don't want to encourage you to get into this field unless you are genuinely passionate about it.
Look at the people tapped for important roles in serious startups, and those who get funded. At least in New York, most come from finance. Tech has as much prestige-whoring as finance (see: Clinkle, which is Stanford Welfare at its worst). The difference is that tech denies it. There's a lot of passive-aggressive cattiness in the hot startups and credibility really matters, despite what people say. The claimed meritocracy is code for "don't question my decisions" (whereas bankers will, at least, admit that they screen on pedigree because there are just so many applicants and it is impossible to evaluate them on deeper criteria). Finance, if you can get in, is a great way to get that credibility. Remember that the people who actually matter in Silicon Valley are the VCs, most of whom did the IBD -> B-school route. It shouldn't be this way, but people who got into VC from technology are extremely rare-- they're only let in after winning the startup lottery, in which case their VC jobs are victory laps to give them something to do, rather than jobs they actually need.
Also, the bubble world that the VCs have created will have dissipated by the time you are in position to take advantage of it. There will still be a lot of work in true technology; there's perennial demand for smart, passionate people who can work hard. Real technology isn't "cool" but it is always real. But the VC darlings-- the hypersocial anal vibrator app companies whose pimple-faced executives get profiled on TechCrunch and Valleywag-- and the "scene" surrounding them will probably be well into decline by mid-2015.
In short, I think you might have "grass is greener" syndrome.
That said, investment banking hours (for IBD analysts) are truly horrible, so I sympathize. Having hyper-networking douchebag co-workers ("those who synergize") is not enviable either. There are plenty of sane, 10-7 financial jobs where you'll have decent co-workers, even in the front office, but the IBD track is not going to lead that way, and those are not the prestigious or high-paying routes.
There's somewhat of a silver lining, which is why the hours in IBD are so bad: the structure of the workflow during the day. People delegate out the door, and everything has a tight deadline, so analysts are getting their work (due next morning) around 4-6pm. Analysts are shift-workers who have to show up 7 hours early, but there is a lot of down time during that period that people spend avoiding additional work so they are ready to play from 4pm to 2am. If you have the energy, you can learn programming in that down time. This does mean that you're actually working 2 jobs as opposed to working one but the hours of 2 (like most analysts). Of course, anything you plan on actually using must be on your own time and resources; but most of your projects in the first year or two you are just for learning.
You should learn programming. Like they say about trading, if you get the opportunity when you're young, you should take it because (a) you'll learn a lot, (b) you might be really good, and (c) if you are good, it's a lot of fun and (sometimes) handsomely rewarded.
Still, I'm not sure that giving up the insta-credibility that comes with banking pedigree is worth it. The software industry has no safety net at all (and don't get some macho delusion; that's not a good thing). Software companies fire good engineers for political reasons that would never fly in banking or law (rule 1: don't fuck with a lawyer, not even a 26-year-old junior) with zero severance and often not even a good reference. Why do startups get away with that nonsense? Because a lot of software engineers are pussies who won't fight for themselves. When banks lay people off, they announce that they are cutting personnel and that protects the reputation of those let go, and they offer severance. When tech companies have layoffs, they usually pretend it's a "low performer initiative" and humiliate people with PIPs (which means there will be no severance, and usually not the guaranteed good reference either) instead of just admitting that business is rough. Again, they get away with that because most engineers are pussies who don't fight for themselves.
Good software engineers (top 3-5%) are treated well after a while, but you have to get high-quality work to get good and it takes years. Average software engineers get no respect, mediocre pay, and no investment by management in their career advancement or opportunities to get better. Getting high-quality work in software is a crapshoot-- for every one working on compiler architecture or machine learning or R&D, there are 10 in this industry working on line-of-business apps with minimal autonomy. You have to fight for yourself to get good projects and when you're young, usually this means changing jobs a lot (but after you've had 7 jobs in 6 years, getting back into finance is extremely challenging, because banks don't like "job hoppers").
What might be a good option for you, if you can get it, is a position in venture capital, given your interests in finance and technology. Unfortunately, most Sand Hill Road VCs are dickheads so getting a VC job out of college, even if you're brilliant, is impossible unless you're coming from Stanford. But you might be able to learn the ropes in less of a brand-name firm, or outside of SV, and then get an MBA. People rip on MBAs here, and that's mostly because we get stuck with the bad ones in startupland. Good MBAs (who are actually intelligent) end up working on billion-dollar deals or at statistical arbitrage desks, while the VP/HR who tries to institute stack ranking in a 77-person startup was at the taint-bottom of his class and is almost certainly a complete failure at life who cries while he masturbates (but, sadly, still has power over you if you are an employee of that 77-person startup).
I don't want to turn you off from technology. Becoming adept at it is an investment that, over time, pays off handsomely. And the work can be extremely rewarding. And it's one of the few domains in which one can make use of very high (140+ IQ) intelligence. But the road to get credibility is hard as hell and (to be blunt) you probably won't get good projects in Silicon Valley given that you come from a public school-- except possibly Berkeley, but even that's a stretch. (If you can find a job locally, or in a talent-hungry emerging tech hub like Austin, Portland or Baltimore, your odds are much better.) Keep learning and investing into your technical knowledge.
Okay, that's a huge brain dump, and not even 1/10th of what I could say on this, but I sincerely hope this helps. Technology is a good field, but I want to make it clear that, for most people, the grass isn't greener than it will be if you can get a good job in finance. If you're going to do tech, you better be laser-focused on becoming extremely good at it, and you'll probably face managerial headwinds to your career advancement and learning in your first 5 years because even though the best tech companies are probably the best overall companies, most tech companies are crap. Banking is the safer route that confers credibility even if you are average in success level, which most people are.