Ask HN: Don't show points? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#31

Post by anamax » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 4:46 PM UTC

jackowayed wrote: post #5

TooMuchNick wrote: post #4

I'm honestly not being cheeky, I suppose I'm just slow: Wouldn't it be easier to just not think about the points? I've found the points useful when looking for a summary, takeaway, or rebuttal that earned attention.

Theoretically, that's the optimal solution. They have advantages for situations like what you listed. The problem is that pretty much everyone is in some way influenced by them just by seeing them. Do you really approach a comment at -10 points with the same open mind as one with +30?

I suspect that comments that have 100 upvotes and 100 down votes are far more interesting than comments that haven't been voted on at all, but have no way to know....

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#32

Post by ricree » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 4:47 PM UTC

chandler wrote: post #30

staunch wrote: post #2

The way it works on Perlmonks(.org) is that you don't see points on a comment/submission until after you've voted. If you want to see the score you can do a "null vote". I definitely think this is a better way to handle it. I really can't think of any reason why you'd want to show score before voting.

>> I really can't think of any reason why you'd want to show score before voting. When I vote (here), I'm pushing a comment towards an idealized score. To make the decisions "do I think this is rated too highly" and "do I think this is rated too lowly" requires knowledge of the current score.

This closely matches the way I mod comments as well.

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#33

Post by jackowayed » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 5:37 PM UTC

wehriam wrote: post #16

I'd much rather deal with the ramifications of "groupthink" than wade through dozens of banal comments. Vote counts give me more information. While that may affect my understanding of an idea, it's for the better. Points may have an inherent bias towards older posts or well known authors, but I value what they represent.

But part of what groupthink does is make the points mean less. The opinions of a few can start a groupthink snowball burying good comments and raising mediocre comments to high scores.

So as of now, that information you're using is unreliable because it is affected by groupthink.

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#34

Post by Hexstream » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 5:55 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #31

jackowayed wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, that's the optimal solution. They have advantages for situations like what you listed. The problem is that pretty much everyone is in some way influenced by them just by seeing them. Do you really approach a comment at -10 points with the same open mind as one with +30?

I suspect that comments that have 100 upvotes and 100 down votes are far more interesting than comments that haven't been voted on at all, but have no way to know....

Yes, I wish points were displayed as:

upmods - downmods = score

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#35

Post by sgk284 » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 7:47 PM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #25

wehriam wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But 10 people's moral character? 30? If the comment was really sparkling, it seems unlikely that the first two ignoramuses would drown out the larger cast of HN. It's not all about timing.

But the whole premise is that once a comment gets a negative score people don't read it anymore. 2 or 3 people could easily do that. Also, 10 people on a site that gets in the area of 200,000 uniques isn't that significant.

What if we don't assume every vote is equal. What about weighting a user's vote by some factor of their karma? And/or capping the threshold that a user can vote. i.e A user with 0 karma can vote on comments with 0-3 points. A person with 100 karma can vote on comments -3-6 points. A person with 500 karma can vote on comments -9-9 points, etc... This implies that a comment with ridiculous votes (either positive or negative) has been decided by members of the community that the community has already shown approval for.

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#36

Post by cchooper » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 7:50 PM UTC

jackowayed wrote: post #33

wehriam wrote: post #16

I'd much rather deal with the ramifications of "groupthink" than wade through dozens of banal comments. Vote counts give me more information. While that may affect my understanding of an idea, it's for the better. Points may have an inherent bias towards older posts or well known authors, but I value what they represent.

But part of what groupthink does is make the points mean less. The opinions of a few can start a groupthink snowball burying good comments and raising mediocre comments to high scores. So as of now, that information you're using is unreliable because it is affected by groupthink.

Which is exactly what happened on Reddit, where you have to wade through all the up-modded pun threads to get to the real comments.

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#37

Post by cchooper » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 7:55 PM UTC

Raphael wrote: post #13

karim wrote: post #10

And what about hiding karma points too ? Imo, the problem with karma is that people try to get more karma, per se.

It serves a purpose, though. When you see a user with high karma, you can easily tell that he has contributed a lot to the conversation.

This is important, because it helps defend the site against trolls.

But perhaps it would be better not to be confronted with your score every time you log in.

Re: Ask HN: Don't show points?

#38

Post by MaysonL » Sun, Feb 01, 2009, 10:11 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #27

jsmcgd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are much less in control of what influences them than what we'd like to admit.

I can confirm this. Halfway through reading his post, I noticed that you had more points than him, stopped to read yours, then read his with skepticism. Possibly it's because you do make a legitimate point, but I'd suspect that your score disrupted the flow of my reading.

Read Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. Anchoring, framing, and sex are very powerful.