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Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

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Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#31

I think I know what you are asking but it is complicated. For safety, regulator, historical and frankly common sense reasons, a car is not one system. It is a system of system that communicate via a CAN BUS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus . This is still true for electric cars. Can this be hacked? Like everything else, yes. Can you side load a new ROM like an android device? Not that know of and hope that neve…

My Tesla used to crash fairly often, and thankfully only once this year. Usually in my driveway but there were two occasions that it crashed while in traffic waiting to make left turns. The touch screen interface component was the subject of all of these so called "crashes": the car is still drivable, but there is a large loss of feedback -- car signal tones are no longer present -- there isn't feedback to know if the car's signal lights are actually engaged or not, no speedometer, climate system stops operation etc. It takes about 2 minutes to restart and recover. Thankfully the Tesla touch screen console is only part of larger system as described.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#32

I think I know what you are asking but it is complicated. For safety, regulator, historical and frankly common sense reasons, a car is not one system. It is a system of system that communicate via a CAN BUS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus . This is still true for electric cars. Can this be hacked? Like everything else, yes. Can you side load a new ROM like an android device? Not that know of and hope that neve…

My Tesla used to crash fairly often, and thankfully only once this year. Usually in my driveway but there were two occasions that it crashed while in traffic waiting to make left turns. The touch screen interface component was the subject of all of these so called "crashes": the car is still drivable, but there is a large loss of feedback -- car signal tones are no longer present -- there isn't feedback to know if th…

This isn't really Tesla specific. I've been in a handful of rental cars that had the infotainment system crash. Which wouldn't be a huge problem if they hadn't eliminated all the physical buttons to do basically anything at all.

Something that seems to trigger it across makes and models is to adjust media controls while the backup cam is on-screen.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#33

I think I know what you are asking but it is complicated. For safety, regulator, historical and frankly common sense reasons, a car is not one system. It is a system of system that communicate via a CAN BUS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus . This is still true for electric cars. Can this be hacked? Like everything else, yes. Can you side load a new ROM like an android device? Not that know of and hope that neve…

Also, in these days of Secure Boot technologies, it's going to be a lot harder to create custom ROMs without having to reverse engineer the whole thing. At least in the past, you could inspect the executable code.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#34

It's legally forbidden for the part of the software that is controlling the car

The only parts where that's true are for things like FCC certification. The US does not have an affirmative certification process for automotive software, including safety critical systems. NHTSA instead puts out a set of rules called FMVSS that manufacturers and aftermarket parts must comply with. Manufacturers then self-certify that they meet FMVSS and produce a bunch of documentation demonstrating that if NHTSA as…

This seems similar to what we do in medical devices.

The manufacturer creates a set of procedures covering the design process that meets, at a minimum, the stages set out in 21CFR, often following the industry standard for software: IEC-62304. Then mfr documents that those procedures were followed and at the end submits a set of documents about the test results and development process for agency approval.

Sound similar? One difference I can see is that if you replace the software in a released medical device with your own, it's no longer considered to be Approved and using it opens you up to Federal liability.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#35
I'm not aware of anything for electric _cars_ other than aftermarket ECUs and smaller patches, version up/downgrades or cross-market reflashing, but together with a few other people I've built https://librescoot.org/ as an open source replacement firmware for electric scooters (mopeds, not standing scooters). The actual ECU firmware has also been reverse engineered, but for legal reasons has been deprioritized - if anyone here is well-versed in STM32 reverse engineering and feels like taking on e-scooter ECUs, let me know :)

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#36
Sorry if off topic, but is there any custom firmware for KIA Sorento 2016-2017 that would allow Android Auto?

KIA won't release any updates to the (Gen 2 I believe) entertainment system firmware that would add Android Auto support, like they did for other cars, but surely it's not a hardware limitation? Could it be?

I would experiment myself if I knew how and had the time...

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#37

It's legally forbidden for the part of the software that is controlling the car

The only parts where that's true are for things like FCC certification. The US does not have an affirmative certification process for automotive software, including safety critical systems. NHTSA instead puts out a set of rules called FMVSS that manufacturers and aftermarket parts must comply with. Manufacturers then self-certify that they meet FMVSS and produce a bunch of documentation demonstrating that if NHTSA as…

For emissions related components, EPA rules do kick in though. While the current administration appears to have paused enforcement, their position for many years has been that running anything except factory approved firmware on an ECU or other emissions related computer constitutes a “defeat device” and is illegal for an on road vehicle subject to emissions controls. (Granted, in practice 99% of the reason anyone installs new firmware on their ECU, or switches to an aftermarket ECU, is for a “tune” that does affect emissions. I’m sure there is some edge case exception, but it’s very rare in on road engines.)

The alternative, and there are a very few tunes that have done this, is to prove to regulators that the tune does not negatively affect emissions in any way. In practice this is done by getting a CARB exception since they’re the ones actually checking for tunes.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only parts where that's true are for things like FCC certification. The US does not have an affirmative certification process for automotive software, including safety critical systems. NHTSA instead puts out a set of rules called FMVSS that manufacturers and aftermarket parts must comply with. Manufacturers then self-certify that they meet FMVSS and produce a bunch of documentation demonstrating that if NHTSA as…

This seems similar to what we do in medical devices. The manufacturer creates a set of procedures covering the design process that meets, at a minimum, the stages set out in 21CFR, often following the industry standard for software: IEC-62304. Then mfr documents that those procedures were followed and at the end submits a set of documents about the test results and development process for agency approval. Sound simil…

Emissions related components work very similarly, replace the software and it’s presumed to be a defeat device unless proved otherwise.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only parts where that's true are for things like FCC certification. The US does not have an affirmative certification process for automotive software, including safety critical systems. NHTSA instead puts out a set of rules called FMVSS that manufacturers and aftermarket parts must comply with. Manufacturers then self-certify that they meet FMVSS and produce a bunch of documentation demonstrating that if NHTSA as…

This seems similar to what we do in medical devices. The manufacturer creates a set of procedures covering the design process that meets, at a minimum, the stages set out in 21CFR, often following the industry standard for software: IEC-62304. Then mfr documents that those procedures were followed and at the end submits a set of documents about the test results and development process for agency approval. Sound simil…

There's some similarities with the FDA, but quite a lot of important differences. NHTSA doesn't approve vehicles, for example. Manufacturers can sell whatever they want. NHTSA simply has the power to issue recalls (preventing further sales) if those vehicles don't comply with FMVSS.

NHTSA also doesn't incorporate standards like the FDA does, so while they're aware of industry standards and employ a number of relevant experts for various purposes, you're under no obligation to follow them. Tesla is actually an example here. Their development processes don't follow ISO-26262 (the automotive equivalent of IEC-62304), though stating this properly would need a lot of asterisks I don't want to get into.

The EU does both of these things for vehicles, though it's a bit more complicated than a flat approval or rejection and it's handled by a designated third party that also does medical device testing like TÜV SÜD. Other countries like the UK have a dedicated agency to handle type approvals.

Re: Ask HN: Do custom ROMs exist for electric cars, for example Teslas?

#40
As I know, all Auto market (not only EV) is extremely regulated (mostly, because of safety measures), so it is not much opened.

I think, it is unfortunately, but not exists official market of custom ROMs.

For about custom ROMs, situation very much like custom ROMs for Canon camera - they don't implemented totally new features, but with hacker methods, unlocked some hidden features, already existing in hardware and software; also exist similarities with Smartphones custom ROMs - for many Smartphones only possible to reset firmware to something like "very new device without traces of wearing", plus some copies of features from same model but other region, or mods (unlock features).

Significant difference of EVs, for them much more frequently used things like "power or torque limited by software", because to faster get certification, producer could limit torque to be equal to ICE original vehicle (usually, electric motor have much higher torque than ICE with comparable other parameters), and in such case don't need to much bother with certification, as in many countries such limited electrification come with very simplified procedure.

Sure, could exist lot of hacks for entertainment system.

And many hacks you could DIY with things like USB to CAN bus controller.

What also interest, exists large market of totaled EVs in 3rd world countries, where in garages literally could refurbish Tesla from trash (suffered extreme collision after which owner decided to utilize machine, but some guys bought it as trash and resell to other country, and it got second life, and I hear many cases, when previous Tesla owners once began get messages from their account but from whole other country).

But that's nearly all, except entertainment system, other parts of EV usually considered highly regulated, so you cannot account for much customization of them.

And level of hacking is very much depend on brand - as I hear, for example, Daimler including in machines "CAN bridges" between entertainment system and ECU, and classic CAN connector could only see entertainment system messages, but access to ECU severe limited (cheaper brands usually don't use CAN bridges).

And sure as with other embedded tech, with time more new designs use locked boot and signed blobs, so with 10 years old machine you will definitely get more access than with brand new.

BTW Tesla is by definition special case, as their electronics could be from different manufacturer in each production batch, as this claimed as feature, because of which Tesla less suffered from covid related issues (when many electronics manufacturers severe drop supply). Sure, this mean, for other manufacturer could be other hack (and early batches hacked much deeper than more modern).

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