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Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

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Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#31

Post by williamdclt »

DecoPerson wrote: post #18

Just write a clear and concise summary of a contract. “You get: [these features]” “I get: [money and the IP]” “We measure success and payment milestones are triggered by: [Clear KPIs and deadlines]” Make sure the 1-2 page doc has your name on it, and ask your boss for permission to drop a paper version on the desks of the higher ups. You can be employed and enter into a separate contract. Edit: I just re-read the ori…

Why would the company say yes? Seems to me they’d say “no, but that’s a good idea we’re going to have you do that as part of your employment”

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#32

Post by chiph »

Dave Plummer went through this while at Microsoft. He had a product he was selling (a shell extension to handle ZIP files) and got a call out of the blue from a M&A person at Microsoft wanting to talk about purchasing it. It got strange when he told them he would walk over to their office to discuss it.

He said he pretty much took their first offer as he didn't want to endanger his position at the company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j0yI41e0j4

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#33

Post by noduerme »

Hobadee wrote: post #15

Since you already work as an automation engineer, it might be a bit harder since programming is probably part of your job, but this is what I did at a previous company: I wrote up a contract basically saying that since programming large programs was outside the scope of my normal work, any such programs I wrote would not be considered "works for hire" (a legal term in the US) and not property of the company, but inst…

Mentioning that you negotiated to keep your code from falling under "works for hire" does a lot of heavy lifting in this (very well packed) example. I recommend that the OP dig into what "works for hire" means in the US to get a sense of what they should negotiate [to avoid].

It can definitely be a win/win for the company as well as for an enterprising engineer. The general idea is simply to go outside the scope of your contract and do something the company didn't ask for, in exchange for a bit of money and the right to reuse whatever code you developed for them.

Avoiding works for hire contracts is how I built a 25 year war chest of reusable components and frameworks, each piece commissioned to an individual task but each used and modified in my next jobs for my next clients, until many versions later I would update my original clients with them.

My advice to OP is to always present your ideas to owners or managers with open ears, and explain how it will help the company. Secondly, never do the work for free. Thirdly, always retain your rights to your ideas and your code when you're working on something creative. If they have a problem with that you can also explain that it's unlikely anyone else will either fill this niche to save them money or that any competitor will ever actually know about or use what you will build for them, but that having it at your disposal is a way for you to continue increasing their efficiency (which is true). It's also a way to make them beholden to you at very little initial cost.

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#34

Post by andrewstuart »

Department X or department Y makes no difference.

You are an employee, they pay to do work for them making stuff.

My advice: put your time into some other project.

Honestly, chances are they just don’t care that much about this problem anyway.

It’s a distraction, forget it.

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#35

Post by chrismorgan »

mattmanser wrote: post #12
GianFabien wrote: post #9

IANAL either. I believe that UK law would be similar to that in Australia. To the best of my understanding, as an employee the IP of all work you produce is owned by the company. Even as a contractor you need rather specific contracts if your work for hire is not to be owned by the client. My first reaction is to advise you to let the idea go. The most likely outcome is that you will do a huge amount of work and then…

You're wrong. In the UK, if you develop it in your free time it's yours, as long as you don't use company equipment. However! It can be a clause in your contract to say sompany owns IP developed in free time, and is enforceable. Sometime there's often an extra clause saying unless an exemption is approved by the board (I assume to stop hirers informally saying 'oh don't worry about that', being legally valid). I have…

Yeah, it’s completely wrong for Australia too. Never actually seen such a clause in an employment contract either, though I’ve only ever worked for smaller companies. I did once encounter a legally-unenforceable non-compete which I got removed easily. (Wish there was some sort of penalty for illegal contract clauses, because of their chilling effect.)

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#36

Post by codingdave »

You sound like you want to be an entrepreneur, but are stuck working in a corporation. Because the corporate answer is: "Seeing and working on improving your organization is already part of your job. Talk to management and get a project rolling." Do it well, get promotions and raises. And then the entrepreneurial answer is to skip all that, go build it yourself, then sell it to many organizations. But you probably cannot do that as an employee, depending on your employment contract.

So sure, the surface levels answers are to talk to a lawyer, your manager, etc. But the deeper answer is to decide on and commit to a direction - are you happy being an employee, or do you need to walk out and start your own thing?

(And as a side note, don't build a startup that is a front-end to someone else's product. It may fill a need, but you are going to be spending all your hours keeping up with their changes, and ultimately your success is tied to their decisions and they could wipe you out just by spending a month improving their UX.)

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#37

Post by DecoPerson »

williamdclt wrote: post #31
DecoPerson wrote: post #18

Just write a clear and concise summary of a contract. “You get: [these features]” “I get: [money and the IP]” “We measure success and payment milestones are triggered by: [Clear KPIs and deadlines]” Make sure the 1-2 page doc has your name on it, and ask your boss for permission to drop a paper version on the desks of the higher ups. You can be employed and enter into a separate contract. Edit: I just re-read the ori…

Why would the company say yes? Seems to me they’d say “no, but that’s a good idea we’re going to have you do that as part of your employment”

If it’s outside your job description, you’re not obliged to do anything.

You’re not a slave. You can say no to your boss. You’re on equal footing (though your boss generally has more power/wealth so can bully/manipulate you). It’s up to your boss as to what they do when you say no. If you’re a good employee when it comes to your usual responsibilities, then they’ll keep you.

If your boss tells you to write software as part of your job and you’re not a software engineer, you can tell them to get stuffed (or sign the contract and both parties benefit!).

Edit: I just re-read the original post and saw that the OP is a software engineer. Ignore everything I said. This sounds like a terrible idea. You’ll burn all your bridges if you pursue this avenue.

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#38

Post by worthless-trash »

chrismorgan wrote: post #35
mattmanser wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong. In the UK, if you develop it in your free time it's yours, as long as you don't use company equipment. However! It can be a clause in your contract to say sompany owns IP developed in free time, and is enforceable. Sometime there's often an extra clause saying unless an exemption is approved by the board (I assume to stop hirers informally saying 'oh don't worry about that', being legally valid). I have…

Yeah, it’s completely wrong for Australia too. Never actually seen such a clause in an employment contract either, though I’ve only ever worked for smaller companies. I did once encounter a legally-unenforceable non-compete which I got removed easily. (Wish there was some sort of penalty for illegal contract clauses, because of their chilling effect.)

Its not completely wrong, I have seen it in two of my Australian employment contracts.

Re: Ask HN: Selling software to company I work for as an employee

#39

Post by tonyhart7 »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #20

> I see this as an opportunity to step in and sell the idea of creating frontend for this tool, however I don't want to do anything for free. Your employer is unlikely to appreciate your trying this. > hence I learnt about that software Your employer paid for the software, and you learned about in on their time. They pay you a salary to work for them. Its really that simple. Best I can imagine working is for you to s…

I agree. I side with OP of course but bringing this topic must give mixed reaction that you don't want at work

I personally would still build it but sell that to another company

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