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Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

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Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#31

Post by spobo »

Avalaxy wrote: post #25
tomasien wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time in my life I've seen someone defend C# and .NET. I don't know that I've been looking very hard though.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

A lot would argue that it's a horribly cluttered and slow IDE. People who love VIM will definitely not like Visual Studio.

That said, since the last few years Microsoft has really been on top of their game. Their latest frameworks are easy to grasp and perform very well. C# is also not too verbose and on top of that they are starting to push open-source with initiatives like codeplex and NuGet. In their MVC Framework they even push jQuery and they are core contributors to it. They recently released their WebAPI wich is a pretty smooth way to create a REST-ful JSON/XML API.

It's definitely not a bad choice. Especially if your developers have already mastered it.

It might not be hip (yet) but it's definitely solid. Although still lagging behind after the trendsetters (Ruby community imo).

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#32

Post by white_devil »

Avalaxy wrote: post #25
tomasien wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time in my life I've seen someone defend C# and .NET. I don't know that I've been looking very hard though.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

> Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio)

You don't seem to be aware of IntelliJ IDEA. VS may be very good, but it's highly unlikely it's "the best in the world" while IDEA is in it.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#33

Post by latchkey »

I started my business exactly a year ago this month. My co-founder and I went with Java on the backend for a few reasons:

1. This is what we were most experienced in. It is important to use what you know in a lot of circumstances because otherwise you'll have a harder time getting off the ground with your projects. Sure, Java isn't hip/cool in a lot of circles, but it gets the job done and there is a ton of support for it. Libraries like Joda DateTime/Money and Jackson are lifesavers that you can't find anywhere else. Do you want to build a business or spend time working on your tooling?

2. When your is new, you pivot your code a lot as you figure out the best way to do things. I can't tell you how many times we've said: "Wow, so glad we used a language that is easily refactored". Being able to safely make huge sweeping changes across your entire codebase without worrying about whether or not you are going to have runtime errors is golden.

3. We are hosted on top of Google AppEngine using Objectify to talk to the datastore as our database. This is another huge win for us. We get unlimited scalability with all the benefits of never having to carry a pager, manage servers or databases. Deploying code takes 2-3 minutes and is super simple. This means more time for adding features, which is very important when you are just starting off. Python is another good choice here, but lacks #2.

I'm definitely not a huge fanboy of Java any longer. I do feel that it hasn't grown with the times and I think Java has too much stuff to type out (even with Eclipse doing most of it for me). That said, I do see Sunacle actively working on it and 3-5 years from now, I bet there will be a shift either back to Java (as Java8 starts to get more widely used and brings the language more current) or to another language like Ceylon, which unfortunately just isn't quite ready yet.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#34

Post by Irfaan »

Avalaxy wrote: post #25
tomasien wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time in my life I've seen someone defend C# and .NET. I don't know that I've been looking very hard though.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

Some of it might have to do with the server platform - a lot of us really like the flexibility of using Linux on the server, but when we think C# we think IIS + Windows.

Is the server-side ecosystem for Linux-hosted C# production worthy? And if so, does it compare well to the solutions getting recommended in this thread?

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#35

Post by rscale »

programminggeek wrote: post #29

I like Ruby and Sinatra, but PHP with a decent Sinatra equivalent framework like Slim would be just as nice, or Python+flask/bottle, or Java/Scala and the Play framework. Honestly, it doesn't matter. Use what you know and like and just build the app. Scaling is a nice problem to have, but don't solve it until you have it.

Use what you know and like and just build the app.

And for a large app, use what the team knows. Both dev and ops.

Scaling is a nice problem to have, but don't solve it until you have it.

And since scaling issues are mostly matters of architecture, rather than language, see rule one: "use what you know."

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#36

Post by interwho »

Personally, I'd go with PHP.

Why?

- It's easy to get things done fast.

- There are plenty of classes available online that'll make things even easier.

- It's easier to maintain (IMHO) than some other languages.

- It'll run on almost all web hosting services cheaply.

- It's scaleable.

If and when you need something more powerful, a seamless transition can be made over to another language.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#37

Post by Avalaxy »

white_devil wrote: post #32
Avalaxy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

> Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio) You don't seem to be aware of IntelliJ IDEA. VS may be very good, but it's highly unlikely it's "the best in the world" while IDEA is in it.

I tried IDEA, and it's nice and all (I love JetBrains software), but I can't say that it's a serious competitor to Visual Studio.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#38

Post by Avalaxy »

Irfaan wrote: post #34
Avalaxy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

Some of it might have to do with the server platform - a lot of us really like the flexibility of using Linux on the server, but when we think C# we think IIS + Windows. Is the server-side ecosystem for Linux-hosted C# production worthy? And if so, does it compare well to the solutions getting recommended in this thread?

I wouldn't run .NET software on Linux, I'd just stick to Windows Server. It's really solid nowadays, and there is enough choice (it isn't even more expensive than linux hosting). Check out Azure and AppHarbor for cloud hosting for example: they both work extremely simple, and have powerful capabilities.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#39

Post by Avalaxy »

spobo wrote: post #31
Avalaxy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I really see no reason to use Java over C#. Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

A lot would argue that it's a horribly cluttered and slow IDE. People who love VIM will definitely not like Visual Studio. That said, since the last few years Microsoft has really been on top of their game. Their latest frameworks are easy to grasp and perform very well. C# is also not too verbose and on top of that they are starting to push open-source with initiatives like codeplex and NuGet. In their MVC Framework…

Great reply, I fully agree with it.

Re: Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why?

#40

Post by p_sherman »

interwho wrote: post #36

Personally, I'd go with PHP. Why? - It's easy to get things done fast. - There are plenty of classes available online that'll make things even easier. - It's easier to maintain (IMHO) than some other languages. - It'll run on almost all web hosting services cheaply. - It's scaleable. If and when you need something more powerful, a seamless transition can be made over to another language.

Large webapp and seamless transition to another language are not really compatible.
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