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Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

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Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#31

Post by jerf »

lliiffee wrote: post #20

There is quite a bit of evidence that Dvorak superiority is a myth: http://www.reason.com/news/show/29944.html http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-...

And quite a bit of evidence that suggests that the "myth" arguments are recycled propaganda from a guy in the early twentieth century who had an axe to grind. Since nobody's actually done significant, unquestionable science on the topic, it's hard to know.

The concept of somebody having an axe to grind about keyboard layouts strikes us as weird in the 21st century when switching keyboard layouts is one quick command in Linux, but back then there was money at stake. I take the whole argument both ways with a grain of salt and say that since there is no respectable science, personal experience is the only thing that you can use to decide.

(A lot of people come to understand that science is superior to anecdotes and personal experience, but when there is no science, anecdotes and personal experience are still better than nothing. If that bothers you, consider the contrapositive, and what it would mean for that to be false.)

I note that I modded you up, though, because the articles are still informative and useful to come to your own conclusion about what I've said in my comment.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#32

Post by mechanical_fish »

mazer wrote: post #23
justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I went whole hog and switched to the Kinesis Contoured and to the Dvorak layout. I'm an Emacs user, and had been one since before the switch. I'd also touch typed qwerty before the switch. A few comments: * The first week or two is almost completely unproductive. You spend most of your time screaming at your fingers to just shut up and get used to the new arrangement. * Once you make the adjustment, although your typ…

Things are a bit of a pain on Macs

Do what I do:

(Here's the default layout for reference (ignore the Dvorak stuff for the purposes of this comment). Note the placement of the thumb keys: http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/advantage_image...)

Remap both of the keys next to the control keys (Alt/Option on the left hand; Command/Win on the right hand) to the Mac Command key. There's a handy extra key cap provided with my Advantage Pro that lets you put the same Command/Win key cap on each of these keys, so it will even look right. (Alas, that trand won't last; see below.)

Now remap Home to Option. Remap Page Up to Option as well. Now you've got Control, Command, and Option under both thumbs. The only problem with this is that total strangers who are trying to use your keyboard will be unable to find your Option keys, but who cares about them? ;)

This takes away your Home and Page Up keys. I like having Page Up/Page Down available, so I remapped Ctrl-PageDown to PageUp. So I can hit PageDown to page down, and C-PageDown to page up.

I don't use the Home or End functions at all. I remap End to Escape, the Escape key to Caps Lock, and the Caps Lock key to F9. Then I set up F9 in Emacs to trigger my own personal keymap and, lo, I have an entire keyboard full of new two-keystroke shortcuts that I can program. (e.g. CapsLock g g instantiates Magit; CapsLock s opens a new shell in another emacs window, CapsLock m opens a manpage, CapsLock j is dabbrev-expand, etc, etc, ad infinitum)

Kinesis keyboards are fun!

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#33

Post by jcl »

justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I've played with one of these as well, and I've noticed that while typing raw text is considerably easier, I'm frustrated by the limited support for modifier keys. The control, alt, and Windows keys are put under the thumbs, which I found awkward to type. Also, they are distributed among four keys, so you can't have them all on both the left and right. You thus can't follow the recommended typing practice of pressing a modifier key with the opposite hand as the key being modified.

The function keys are also unusually small and difficult to locate by touch (and, given the above, some function key/modifier combinations are quite challenging). The Windows context menu key is gone entirely, which means you have to use shift-F10 instead, if you need it.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#35

Post by mcxx »

mazer wrote: post #23
justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I went whole hog and switched to the Kinesis Contoured and to the Dvorak layout. I'm an Emacs user, and had been one since before the switch. I'd also touch typed qwerty before the switch. A few comments: * The first week or two is almost completely unproductive. You spend most of your time screaming at your fingers to just shut up and get used to the new arrangement. * Once you make the adjustment, although your typ…

That's one reason why I'm not so keen on learning Dvorak - you won't be able to write efficiently on any other computer than yours. Until now, it was just my assumption, that by learning Dvorak (or any other layout as a matter of fact), you'll lose your QWERTY-fu. Thanks for sharing.

I'll probably stick with QWERTY and a Kinesis keyboard.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#36

Post by stanley »

mazer wrote: post #23
justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I went whole hog and switched to the Kinesis Contoured and to the Dvorak layout. I'm an Emacs user, and had been one since before the switch. I'd also touch typed qwerty before the switch. A few comments: * The first week or two is almost completely unproductive. You spend most of your time screaming at your fingers to just shut up and get used to the new arrangement. * Once you make the adjustment, although your typ…

I'm in the same boat as you mazer. A few weeks ago I ordered a Kinesis Advantage keyboard and used the opportunity to switch over to Dvorak.

The first 2 weeks were really frustrating, particularly since I was a relatively fast Qwerty typer (125wpm). About a month and a half in I'm hovering somewhere around 50-60wpm.

The keyboard itself is a lot more comfortable than anything I've ever used. The Dvorak layout makes typing as a whole a more efficient process but on the down side some common shortcuts are a pain to use. Although the Kinesis allows you to remap the keys I have not yet taken the time to do so.

I do see myself gradually improving as time goes by, but it's a long process and requires a lot of patience. For anyone interested in switching over make sure you give yourself at least a week to adjust. In the end it's all about practice.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#38

Post by jobenjo »

mcxx wrote: post #35
mazer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went whole hog and switched to the Kinesis Contoured and to the Dvorak layout. I'm an Emacs user, and had been one since before the switch. I'd also touch typed qwerty before the switch. A few comments: * The first week or two is almost completely unproductive. You spend most of your time screaming at your fingers to just shut up and get used to the new arrangement. * Once you make the adjustment, although your typ…

That's one reason why I'm not so keen on learning Dvorak - you won't be able to write efficiently on any other computer than yours. Until now, it was just my assumption, that by learning Dvorak (or any other layout as a matter of fact), you'll lose your QWERTY-fu. Thanks for sharing. I'll probably stick with QWERTY and a Kinesis keyboard.

I've been using Dvorak/Kinesis for about 4 years, and I agree mostly with what's said. After a while, I found I could still use QWERTY, at least at a decent enough level that I could just grab someone's computer and not bother remapping (though sometimes I do that too).

The funny thing is every time someone grabs my laptop, they are totally freaked out.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#40

Post by nihilocrat »

One of the main reasons I stick with QWERTY is because it is not uncommon that I will switch to a German keyboard layout when talking with German friends. Dvorak and Colemak are English-optimized and so switching to or from them has a much higher mental cost than switching from English QWERTY to German, which closely resembles QWERTY.

I think I'll try it out, anyways. There's already a bit of re-learning that has to be done when switching from English to German, so maybe in practice it will be easy. I already notice that I sort of context-switch, so maybe my brain will seperate the layouts sufficiently so that it's no harder than switching like I already do.

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