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Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

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Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#31

Post by sjm-lbm »

ryandrake wrote: post #29
iKlsR wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

Haha, that's totally believable and in tune with the MicrosoftMentality of those days. I'd love to see the corroborating evidence, though! If I recall correctly, the (also paid) MSDN developer reference documentation was actually pretty OK. The problems you needed Petzold and Richter for were the higher level "why is Windows this way?" topics and "what's the Windows-way to design XYZ?" questions. The actual APIs them…

There's the rather famous AARD Code (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code), though that is from an era a little before Win32. And, well, it's not a documentation issue for app developers, as much a way to trick OS developers.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#32

Post by elzbardico »

steve1977 wrote: post #13

What exactly do you consider systems programming, i.e. what would you like to achieve? Windows is not open source, so unless you work for Microsoft, you won’t really be doing much “real” systems programming probably. Do you want to program applications? Windows services? Device drivers?

Considering the absurdly huge number of hardware devices that have windows support, SCADA and automation system that run on windows, lab instrumentation, security and compliance software, I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are more system programmers making a living out of windows in a professional setting than linux system developers.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#33

Post by ryandrake »

sjm-lbm wrote: post #31
ryandrake wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, that's totally believable and in tune with the MicrosoftMentality of those days. I'd love to see the corroborating evidence, though! If I recall correctly, the (also paid) MSDN developer reference documentation was actually pretty OK. The problems you needed Petzold and Richter for were the higher level "why is Windows this way?" topics and "what's the Windows-way to design XYZ?" questions. The actual APIs them…

There's the rather famous AARD Code ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code ), though that is from an era a little before Win32. And, well, it's not a documentation issue for app developers, as much a way to trick OS developers.

LOL @ those memos. This was long before all our companies adopted the "Don't say anything in E-mail that could become evidence" training. Their ruthlessness and obsession with destroying everything not-Microsoft was truly unique and special. I can't think of any company here in modern times so focused on not only winning but making sure absolutely everyone else lost. Old-school Microsoft was wild.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#34

Post by Joe_Cool »

deaddodo wrote: post #11

The reason you're not getting a good answer is because the ultimate answer is to just use Microsoft's Documentation: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/get-started/s... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ It covers near everything, is extremely exhaustive, and constantly updated. That being said, if you're more interested in how the Windows…

I really miss the MSDN CD-ROMs. They had all of the information without network latency. Indexed and searchable. Categorized in a tree, complete with code examples you could immediately try. Press F1 on a function and there is the reference.

Most of the old APIs still work exactly the same so I am frequently tempted to look stuff up in my VS6 install just because it's so fast and convenient.

MSDN_Library_October_2001 is the latest one they mailed out for Visual Studio 6.

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#35

Post by alfiedotwtf »

iKlsR wrote: post #19
deaddodo wrote: post #11

The reason you're not getting a good answer is because the ultimate answer is to just use Microsoft's Documentation: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/get-started/s... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ It covers near everything, is extremely exhaustive, and constantly updated. That being said, if you're more interested in how the Windows…

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

I remember a different reason - APIs were intentionally not documented so Microsoft Products were the only apps that would know how to use them (and gain an advantage over the competition)

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#36

Post by luxuryballs »

iKlsR wrote: post #19
deaddodo wrote: post #11

The reason you're not getting a good answer is because the ultimate answer is to just use Microsoft's Documentation: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/get-started/s... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ It covers near everything, is extremely exhaustive, and constantly updated. That being said, if you're more interested in how the Windows…

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

heck I would do it just for the perk of having to do less documentation at work

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#37

Post by tbyehl »

iKlsR wrote: post #19
deaddodo wrote: post #11

The reason you're not getting a good answer is because the ultimate answer is to just use Microsoft's Documentation: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/get-started/s... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ It covers near everything, is extremely exhaustive, and constantly updated. That being said, if you're more interested in how the Windows…

I remember reading a funny story somewhere recently that back in the day, ms developers intentionally left gaps in the docs or straight up didn't document certain apis etc so they could put them in their books and sell those so if you were working on certain things you'd be forced to buy said books.

Back in the day, Microsoft shipped a figurative ton of documentation. I remember my dad coming home with this monstrosity:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/917478/microsofts-biggest-so...

Re: Ask HN: Can anyone recommend a Windows Systems programming book?

#38

Post by rkharsan64 »

wheybags wrote: post #24

The old new thing[1]. It's a blog, but he did also publish a book[2] compilation of some choice blog posts. The book is from a few years ago, so some specifics might be outdated, but I think a real strength of the blog is how, despite being very targeted, focusing on specifics of one OS, it's also very general. I also just really like Raymond Chen's writing style. 1: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/ 2: htt…

I agree that this is a fun book/blog, but I would recommend anybody trying to learn Windows system programming to look elsewhere. This is more like a collection of fun bugs and weird design decisions.
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