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Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

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Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#31

Post by gtirloni »

zainhoda wrote: post #21

I think the RTO is somewhat of a temporary condition. The big companies are telling workers to come back into the office and they’re complying because the job market has softened and people don’t want to lose their jobs. Companies haven’t realized the detriment that RTO is having on their recruitment because most of the big names are doing layoffs rather than hiring. It’s pretty evident that companies that are postin…

RTO companies are already paying a lot more than the market. When this bounces back, I can only imagine the even higher premium they will need to pay to attract top performers.

It's the sunk cost fallacy in action. They spent too much on physical space and the whole organization that comes with that and can't let it go and cut their losses, so they are doubling down with RTO. I can't see this ending well in the long-term for them.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#32

Post by brianjking »

cableshaft wrote: post #6

Because fuck you, that's why. Pretty much what it boils down to. A lot of executives hated that employees got so much power during the pandemic (even though it's still miniscule compared to the power the executives have themselves) and they couldn't wait to take it back away from them. Now that there's a bit of a downturn (at least in tech jobs), they're taking advantage of it to force things back to the way it used…

Yeah, it's very much a "because f you, that's why".

CEO's like Benioff from Salesforce are out there touting record profits and productivity on stock earnings calls all throughout the pandemic and then go on and lay everyone off and call the remaining employees back to the office under the guise of "no one is working"

It's quite odd - you can't both have record profits & productivity and then also have "no one working"

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#33

Post by jstx1 »

lmarcos wrote: post #16
jstx1 wrote: post #8

> The best I have is that this is some kind of power play but I'm not convinced. Am I missing something? You can consider that not everyone has the same preferences as you. Many people are more productive and happier working from an office and meeting their colleauges in person. Forcing people into limited open space with unassigned seats sounds like terrible execution of return to office but in general RTO doesn't h…

> You can consider that not everyone has the same preferences as you. Many people are more productive and happier working from an office and meeting their colleauges in person. You mean, that to each their own right? I agree, but RTO is the opposite. RTO forces everyone to work from the office. If you prefer to work from the office, go ahead be my guest. I prefer to work from home. It's a win-win, right? No. Just bec…

Doing whatever you want isn't enough. If on a team of 10 people 9 are remote, the 10th person who goes to the office is remote too, they're just doing it from a different location. And vice versa, many people who like remote wouldn't like to be the only remote person while the other 9 people are in office (because they'll miss out on so much of the communication).

So while I want you to have whatever working arrangement works for you, either arangement only work if most of your colleagues have the same preference as you.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#34

Post by clnq »

In my opinion, remote work is here to stay in the long term. Many tech companies now jumping on the RTO trend may not yet fully comprehend the costs they will eventually incur. A number of their senior engineers are departing and finding high demand for their skills from remote companies. Not to mention that many are establishing their own startups, offering even greater flexibility in the workplace. In my sector of the industry (games), there are articles every week in the news about ex-leads building their own studios; can you guess why? What is more, anti-remote companies can't attract this talent with their headhunters anymore.

There will always be entry-level candidates willing to do whatever it takes to get a tech job and ambitious career makers gunning for those vacant leadership roles. But the costs of losing decades of institutional knowledge will catch up with these companies. They are harming themselves for an RTO whim and many won't make it in the long-term with his type of leadership.

WFH for engineers is a no-brainer however you look at it. Whether it's about quality of life, work and life balance, convenience, savings on office space and utilities, or being able to attract top talent. Why would I, as an engineer, apply for a job that will ask me to relocate, make my spouse quit their job to move with me, pull my kids out of school and make them find new friends elsewhere, abandon all my responsibilities to my community and put my house up for rent for a company when there are plenty more that don't ask me to do it? And most will still have a small office to come into if I so insist.

I don't think cunning malice or power plays can explain the decisions of leaders forcing RTO on their employees. There does not seem to be anything calculated about this to me. I reckon they just don't understand what happened to their business during the pandemic and they want to get back to the good old ways instead of finding the actual root causes of their problems. When the damage of RTO becomes clear, some will revert their decisions, and others will double down. Either they will go back to WFH or make space for others on the market. Doing work that can be done from home from the office is an unnatural state of things, it was only normal in very recent history, and hopefully briefly.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#35

Post by make_it_sure »

JohnFen wrote: post #19

It's a power play. Plus, companies have all this real estate that they need to justify. I've listened closely to all of the pro-RTO people, and have yet to hear a single reason proposed that makes any sense at all. The only thing I'm left with that makes any sense is that this is about power and money.

You don't want to hear other reasons. There are tons of people that now work on 2-3 companies at the same time -> productivity decreased. They do all other stuff around the house and they get caught up on it -> productivity decreased. Company culture doesn't make sense anymore and teams are less connected -> productivity decreased.

There are many other reasons, not just power like people here say just because they are highly biased.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#36

Post by testbjjl »

brianjking wrote: post #32
cableshaft wrote: post #6

Because fuck you, that's why. Pretty much what it boils down to. A lot of executives hated that employees got so much power during the pandemic (even though it's still miniscule compared to the power the executives have themselves) and they couldn't wait to take it back away from them. Now that there's a bit of a downturn (at least in tech jobs), they're taking advantage of it to force things back to the way it used…

Yeah, it's very much a "because f you, that's why". CEO's like Benioff from Salesforce are out there touting record profits and productivity on stock earnings calls all throughout the pandemic and then go on and lay everyone off and call the remaining employees back to the office under the guise of "no one is working" It's quite odd - you can't both have record profits & productivity and then also have "no one workin…

> CEO's like Benioff from Salesforce

The guy built the largest office building west of the Mississippi which now sits largely unoccupied alongside other unoccupied office buildings. His opinion is biased.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#37

Post by paulcole »

cableshaft wrote: post #13
MaxHoppersGhost wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a cynical take. Why is it so ridiculous to believe that teams that work together in-person are more effective/innovative?

So what if they are? (And I'd argue there's not much hard evidence of that, and the in-person working together I did a couple months ago at an engineering summit was completely ineffective and far from innovative, and I think the pandemic in general has proven that people don't need to be in-person to be effective and innovative.) Why must a company hyper-maximize the effectiveness of every employee at the expense of…

> I think the pandemic in general has proven that people don't need to be in-person to be effective and innovative.)

Yes, for some subset of people.

Many people found they did prefer to be in-person to be effective, innovative, and enjoy their work. Some companies are going to want to hire those people and avoid hiring the ones who don’t prefer in-person work.

Nothing wrong with that. It’s somebody at the the company’s decision to make. And maybe it’s a bad decision or a good decision, who knows.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#38

Post by kar5pt »

paulcole wrote: post #37
cableshaft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what if they are? (And I'd argue there's not much hard evidence of that, and the in-person working together I did a couple months ago at an engineering summit was completely ineffective and far from innovative, and I think the pandemic in general has proven that people don't need to be in-person to be effective and innovative.) Why must a company hyper-maximize the effectiveness of every employee at the expense of…

> I think the pandemic in general has proven that people don't need to be in-person to be effective and innovative.) Yes, for some subset of people. Many people found they did prefer to be in-person to be effective, innovative, and enjoy their work. Some companies are going to want to hire those people and avoid hiring the ones who don’t prefer in-person work. Nothing wrong with that. It’s somebody at the the company…

So why not let people decide for themselves whether they want to be remote? You're assuming in person workers are more effective, which is precisely what's in question to begin with.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#39

Post by paulcole »

lmarcos wrote: post #16
jstx1 wrote: post #8

> The best I have is that this is some kind of power play but I'm not convinced. Am I missing something? You can consider that not everyone has the same preferences as you. Many people are more productive and happier working from an office and meeting their colleauges in person. Forcing people into limited open space with unassigned seats sounds like terrible execution of return to office but in general RTO doesn't h…

> You can consider that not everyone has the same preferences as you. Many people are more productive and happier working from an office and meeting their colleauges in person. You mean, that to each their own right? I agree, but RTO is the opposite. RTO forces everyone to work from the office. If you prefer to work from the office, go ahead be my guest. I prefer to work from home. It's a win-win, right? No. Just bec…

> You mean, that to each their own right?

No. I don’t know if the pro-remote people really don’t get this or just pretend?

It’s not about where I am and where you are. It’s about us being in the same physical place that people (such as myself) who prefer office work are looking for.

If I’m in the office and the other 25 people aren’t then it doesn’t benefit me the way I want it to. So for the company, it’s either RTO and the 25 people make a decision about what they want to do or stay remote and I make a decision about what I want to do. Neither is right or wrong, it’s just a decision that might have a good outcome or not.

In a way it is “to each their own” in that you get to decide whether the good stuff about your job outweighs the bad.

Re: Ask HN: Is remote going away? Why?

#40

Post by paulcole »

JohnFen wrote: post #22
lmarcos wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can consider that not everyone has the same preferences as you. Many people are more productive and happier working from an office and meeting their colleauges in person. You mean, that to each their own right? I agree, but RTO is the opposite. RTO forces everyone to work from the office. If you prefer to work from the office, go ahead be my guest. I prefer to work from home. It's a win-win, right? No. Just bec…

I find it very interesting that the WFH crowd is advocating for what works for them, and is not demanding that everyone work from home. The RTO crowd, however, is demanding that everyone conform to their own preferences and work from the office.

Both remote mandates and RTO mandates upset people. They are both demands that everyone conform to something.
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