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Ask HN: Racism in London

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Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#31

Post by nuc1e0n »

pannSun wrote: post #22
benjaminwootton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t looked up the stats but London must be at least a third black or south Asian ethnicity, maybe more. I’m sure any restaurant that was systematically racist to those groups would soon go out of business.

Good guess. While London was 87% white British in 1971, that is now down to 37% (54% if counting all whites, not just Britons): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London#Ethnicity...

I wonder what portion of that 1971 'White British' were actually Irish, Huguenots French, German Jewish or one of the other myriad dispossessed groups that have been coming to London for centuries.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#32

Post by charlescearl »

N.B. despite London being a “diverse” city, racialization permeates, even among the elites. Pop culture commentaries — the Meghan & Harry Netflix documentary; the popular Man Like Mobeen series — as indicators of wider problems. Would this be surprising given the extent to which global racialization has been a primary factor in construction of the British empire?

The recently released Abolition Revolution by Aviah Sarah Day and Shanice Octavia McBean might provide context on current dilemmas in Britain.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#33

Post by ajvs »

As a non-white Londoner I'd say it's far more likely they didn't like the way you dressed or your first impression rather than the colour of your skin, given that the city is one of the most diverse in the world.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#34

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #30

Are you sure it is anything to do with Racism? I mean you have no evidence of that and it's a large assumption on your part? London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant. If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for bein…

As someone whose been bullied in the workplace later proven to be based on sexual orientation (but not at a time where I had any weight behind any prejudice accusations), I’m gonna ahead and say piss right off with your ‘are you sure’ junk. Modern racism is much more under the covers than to kill a mockingbird.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#35

Post by pannSun »

nuc1e0n wrote: post #31
pannSun wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good guess. While London was 87% white British in 1971, that is now down to 37% (54% if counting all whites, not just Britons): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London#Ethnicity...

I wonder what portion of that 1971 'White British' were actually Irish, Huguenots French, German Jewish or one of the other myriad dispossessed groups that have been coming to London for centuries.

Like clockwork. When it comes to claiming Europe has always been diverse and its countries have no identity, and demographics trends must be obfuscated, different European ethnicities are looked at separately, as if they have nothing in common. But when it's time to blame white people or claim some profession isn't diverse enough, they're lumped into a single group.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#36

Post by valdiorn »

Question; how do you present yourself externally? How are you dressed?

I (a white dude in my 30s) recently went to a high end clothes shop, intending to buy a nice shirt for Christmas. As I asked one of the sales assistants for help, she instantly proclaimed they "have nothing in my size" and that I "must use their online store". This shocked me a bit as, while in a big guy I'm far from huge. I work out a lot, and I'm a tad big, but come on... I asked if I could try the largest shirt they stock in store and she reluctantly agreed, and after putting it on it was about 4 sizes too big.

The thing is, I walked in wearing a dirty fleece jacket, and I hadn't shaved for about 2 weeks as I had been really ill, it was my first day back at work for for a while.

The experience felt alien to be because usually the sales assistants will fight for my attention - presumably because I look like good commission. Except on this one occasion I looked like trouble - maybe a homeless person taking the piss :)

While I've never experienced racism, for obvious reasons, and can't testify to what that feels like, I suspect this is a low level variation of the same effect that black/east Asian people experience daily. The hostess sees you approach and instantly stereotypes you as a certain type of person. Obviously, racial stereotypes will play a part in this classification. But just like I was classified as "scruffy weirdo" by the sales assistant in the clothes store, I might just as well have been turned away by the same restaurant you went to, had I gone there looking like I did.

I could go and tell you "ayo, you need to change your external appearance for people to treat you right" that sounds... incredibly patronizing, racist and wrong. So I'm not going to do that. But at the same time it is a solution to this "problem"... just like the when I went shopping the next day, I had shaved and put on a clean shirt, and suddenly everyone was happy to help and had clothes in my size to sell me :/

Summary; it's more about classifying people based on their external appearance than it is about straight-up racism. I'm sure they had a table for a black guy in a Gucci suit, and they would've been fully booked for a scruffy, homeless-looking white guy.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#37

Post by _Wintermute »

miiiiiike wrote: post #25

Yep, had a few experiences. I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment. U…

As someone who has lived in the UK for 25 years with a Polish surname, I've never experienced this at all.

It's more likely due to someone with an American accent asking strangers questions, people immediately think loud tourist and stay away.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#38

Post by cassianoleal »

_Wintermute wrote: post #37
miiiiiike wrote: post #25

Yep, had a few experiences. I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment. U…

As someone who has lived in the UK for 25 years with a Polish surname, I've never experienced this at all. It's more likely due to someone with an American accent asking strangers questions, people immediately think loud tourist and stay away.

GP's story seems highly unlikely, or at least is missing crucial details. I've lived in London for the last 8 years, and a total of around 11. I'm neither white nor European, let alone British.

I have many friends, Polish, Turkish, British of various ethnicities, Africans from a few different countries, Middle Easterners, Americans (mostly South and Central), you name it.... I have never heard of any of them being treated in such a way.

Also, why was this person flaunting a passport around London? The only times I had mine on me were when coming in or out of the country. Then, he decides to change his name because of how "some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years"?

Assuming the story is true, I somehow don't think the problem has ever been his name, surname, physical appearance or passport. I don't want to assume a lie but there are definitely important pieces missing.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#39

Post by porknubbins »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #34
ChildOfChaos wrote: post #30

Are you sure it is anything to do with Racism? I mean you have no evidence of that and it's a large assumption on your part? London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant. If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for bein…

As someone whose been bullied in the workplace later proven to be based on sexual orientation (but not at a time where I had any weight behind any prejudice accusations), I’m gonna ahead and say piss right off with your ‘are you sure’ junk. Modern racism is much more under the covers than to kill a mockingbird.

I have learned over the years that when you go around looking for subtle discrimination or microagressions against you, you basically activate two dangerous parts of your “brain” which are fear/threat detection and pattern recognition. Its much better to have thick skin and count only real overt discrimination, or you can get bitter and paranoid too easily.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#40

Post by zemvpferreira »

okdood64 wrote: post #11
zemvpferreira wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true it is a shameful thing. Come to Lisbon instead. We're not even that civilised but you certainly won't have trouble being served anywhere.

> We're not even that civilised Elaborate?

We don't chew with our mouthes open and know how to use cutlery but matter of fact Lisbon is Europe's backwater and racism/sexism/violence/abuse are still very much present in daily life to a degree other Western European nations have long left behind. But we're not as openly bigoted as Londoners apparently - or at least friendlier about it.

Maybe we're missing the superiority complex.

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