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Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

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Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#31

Post by Raidion »

comprev wrote: post #30

Enforcement by means of CI is a fairly simple approach for many issues. Issues should have a minimum set of requirements including suitable testing. No colleague should approve a PR unless it ticks the necessary boxes. Our CI does a check to see if Terraform was correctly formatted prior to push and will fail before any "init" / "plan" / "apply" step is reached.

I'll ask because we're struggling with this now. What do you do to reduce the risk of an auto applied TF change going sideways? Our current workflow involves a manual review/approval by devOps.

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#32

Post by zeroonetwothree »

haswell wrote: post #27
Terretta wrote: post #12

First two of these examples may be on the religious or yak shaving end of debates, where the best practice is probably not an absolute. 1. There are code bases and PRs where coalescing many small changes into one "this changes how we do this" commit is encouraged when it's a semvar level change requiring coordinated edits to keep working, rather than a purely iterative change. 2. Most research shows universal unit te…

> If many of your discussions fall in this zone, it's possible you, yourself, may be taking guidelines as too black and white. I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I’m no fan of following process for the sake of it. On the other, the way to address policies that need an update is to sit down with the lead/manager and propose changes with evidence as to why. Deciding to just do things your way and t…

IME it’s pretty much impossible to change rules adopted by a bureaucracy if you are just a cog.

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#34

Post by sshine »

mritun wrote: post #7

It can be hard. The key is to 1) not engage in conversation 2) add mechanical tools that fail the build if coverage isn’t enough! A lot of times people argue that it’s stupid to have a “target” code coverage. I used to be one such person until I saw what happens when you leave it to people. Most people would still keep quality bar high, but one rotten fish spoils the pond and the tools that mechanically measure quali…

> add mechanical tools that fail the build

I wish this wasn’t so damn effective.

Anecdata says that people who are too stubborn to adapt to other people’s best practices often don’t mind the practices, only the way they are conveyed.

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#35

Post by mjrbrennan »

Terretta wrote: post #12

First two of these examples may be on the religious or yak shaving end of debates, where the best practice is probably not an absolute. 1. There are code bases and PRs where coalescing many small changes into one "this changes how we do this" commit is encouraged when it's a semvar level change requiring coordinated edits to keep working, rather than a purely iterative change. 2. Most research shows universal unit te…

I would honestly find #3 a tough pill to swallow as well, and where do you draw the line? If I copy a line of `arr.map()` and use my own variable names does that count? Direct copying from SO can be bad generally but also adding all the license hoop jumping overhead just seems annoying.

The first two are fine though as long as there is room for interpretation, but if the person is pushing back every single time that’s just obnoxious.

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#36

Post by programmarchy »

Generally, I view people who push back as valuable, but the caveat is they have to be correct or at least providing a valuable alternative viewpoint. If they're not, and actually just being lazy, then collect some objective documentation if necessary and get to work on firing them.

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#39

Post by curiousDog »

After seeing great folks laid off from FANG, i would also question if you should care so much about these things. IMO, us SWEs tend to care so much about writing idiomatic code for corporate overlords when in reality the effects of mildly sloppy code won’t be realized for a decade, it’s okay to leave it to the next poor soul that has to deal with it 10yrs down the lane and just enjoy your weekend :-)

Re: Ask HN: How to work with people who push back forcefully?

#40

Post by sshine »

> I'm the tech lead but not manager of my current team and I'm responsible for the technical execution of the team and the success or failure on that level.

I’ve been here.

Resorting to authoritative measures (giving commands) is the only way. If you don’t need to pull the manager in, it works better. When they simply refuse to do the task you’ve agreed to and just do something else, you go in and solve their task, and you raise a concern with the manager. But to the extent that you can have the dialogue directly and make them sound spoiled will carry more towards equipping your own authority.

Ultimately, they are measured by their ability to solve problems they’re asked to in the ways requested.

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