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Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

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31–40 of 112 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#31
post #25

For me that would be an effective way to target government money to people that really need it. Another comment pointed the expiring money, specialized money, etc as a distopia future but this is only if we let it become that IMHO. There is also a utopia side to that coin where money like UBI can be easily distributed to all but can only be used to buy necessities like food, shelters, etc but cannot be used to buy st…

India fixed this problem with “direct benefit transfer” straight to bank accounts. And this was before the current UPI system had really taken off. Really, if a country of 1.4 billion people where beneficiaries can number more than the populations of most countries, I don’t see why you would need CBDCs at all.

I would argue that yes it can be done outside of a platform like this, but each time you want to implement a new policy you need to talk to all private actors and force them to implement your policy.

With programmable money (think ETH smart contracts for the government) a policy could be roll out to the entire population uniformly in a matter of days.

This is why this concept is so powerful and is inevitable IMHO.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#32

We are about to enter a new age of social welfare as Gen X and Millenials enter old age. We don’t expect anyone to start dying quickly. Boomers are here too. Start doling out the coupons digitally to subsidize life. Instead of printing money constantly, devalue the coupons (social security) and set rates for what life actually cost (e.g get everyone used to accepting 1 unit for food, 1 unit being whatever the governm…

So...price fixing? That definitely hasn't worked so well in the past.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#33

Normal bank accounts are on the books of the commercial banks. That requires a deposit insurance scheme to make those deposits "money good". Otherwise you end up being an unwitting investor in the bank and subject to losing some or all of your deposit if the bank lends badly. A digital currency, at least in the terms generally discussed by central banks at the sharp end, moves your bank account to the books of the ce…

> Normal bank accounts are on the books of the commercial banks. That requires a deposit insurance scheme to make those deposits "money good". Otherwise you end up being an unwitting investor in the bank and subject to losing some or all of your deposit if the bank lends badly.

> A digital currency, at least in the terms generally discussed by central banks at the sharp end, moves your bank account to the books of the central bank, so it is always money good without the need for a deposit insurance system. The commercial bank then operates it as agent rather than principal.

You can have Fed Accounts[1] without a CBDC.

[1]: https://www.slowboring.com/p/fed-accounts

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#34
post #25

For me that would be an effective way to target government money to people that really need it. Another comment pointed the expiring money, specialized money, etc as a distopia future but this is only if we let it become that IMHO. There is also a utopia side to that coin where money like UBI can be easily distributed to all but can only be used to buy necessities like food, shelters, etc but cannot be used to buy st…

programmable money is a good thing. Permissioned programmable money is a bad thing.

I don't think you can separate the two honestly. As soon as you have a smart contract for something you can make it permissioned. Only human laws outside of tech could prevent that so I am guessing each country will be different.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#35

We are about to enter a new age of social welfare as Gen X and Millenials enter old age. We don’t expect anyone to start dying quickly. Boomers are here too. Start doling out the coupons digitally to subsidize life. Instead of printing money constantly, devalue the coupons (social security) and set rates for what life actually cost (e.g get everyone used to accepting 1 unit for food, 1 unit being whatever the governm…

So...price fixing? That definitely hasn't worked so well in the past.

Whether it works well or not will not be of concern, it will be the only choice.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#36

Explain to me like I am 5 Out of sight, out of mind. You don't see it but private transaction processors (Visa and Mastercard) consume up to 3% of the transaction amount. Over the course of a year, this amounts to $50 billion removed from the economy. The merchant pays this --- and passes the cost along to you in terms of higher prices. The money transfer system that deposits your check is old and slow and involves h…

What I don't really understand here is in what sense you're suggesting a new currency. It seems that you're suggesting that the central bank replace Visa and Mastercard. But those don't have their own currency either.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India fixed this problem with “direct benefit transfer” straight to bank accounts. And this was before the current UPI system had really taken off. Really, if a country of 1.4 billion people where beneficiaries can number more than the populations of most countries, I don’t see why you would need CBDCs at all.

I would argue that yes it can be done outside of a platform like this, but each time you want to implement a new policy you need to talk to all private actors and force them to implement your policy. With programmable money (think ETH smart contracts for the government) a policy could be roll out to the entire population uniformly in a matter of days. This is why this concept is so powerful and is inevitable IMHO.

> I would argue that yes it can be done outside of a platform like this, but each time you want to implement a new policy you need to talk to all private actors and force them to implement your policy.

And you know what, many jurisdictions have done exactly that, and brought massive improvements to their banking infrastructure in the last decades. Private actors either comply or lose their banking/credit/payment licenses, it's as simple as that.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Practically, it will make little or no difference to you. So when the fed reserve decides inflation is too high because they printed too much money and kept interest rates low- instead of trying to "soften the labor market"/drive unemployment up and more people into poverty - with a digital currency, they can simply zap your money away. No need for financial "austerity" for the poor's to endure. What could go wrong…

> "wait til you have an ESG score for your personal life" How exactly do you suggest the 'G' part would work? It's short for "corporate governance" you know. I get the feeling you're getting these bizarre talking points from some right-wing echo chamber where they're coming up with a new scary acronym panic on a regular basis. "Watch out, the ESG will CRT you into the NWO!"

Did I need to spell out more explicitly the connection between social credit scores and China implements them and ESG scores that have been brought to the rest of the world, and that maybe having digital, government managed currencies will allow our own western governments to follow the China experiment?

Thanks for nitpicking a loose use of the term ESG, and then dismissing everything else with the categorical label of right wing echo chamber nonsense.

I didn't get these ideas from a far right echo chamber either. The following paper comes from an advocate of banning cryptocurrency, and replacing it with federal coins, that can then manage monetary policy way more precisely than the current system we have. Part of that policy would be the ability to literally reduce people's ledgers as a form of inflation control. Oh, and the author was going to be tapped as a wall street regulator, but barely missed confirmation. While she didn't make the cut, seems like her ideas did.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3715735

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#39
post #5

I think the answer is in your question: All forms of money you currently use online (bank-transfer, Zelle, credit card, etc.) are owned and operated by private entities. None of them are public money like cash is, backed by the central bank. CBDC is intended to be a digital equivalent of cash, so that people have a public money option for digital purchases. It could mean anything from everyone having an account at th…

Well it depends. Certainly eveybody having accounts at the central bank is one way to do things. They could also do something more akin to cryptocurrency, rather than traditional accounts. Honestly I half expect that.

There has also been talk of this being an offering of retail banks in the US. In order to be truly cash-like these would be quite different from normal bank accounts. Under this approach these accounts would not be eligible for many normal banking services, because people who the banks would not normally deal with (due to terrible credit, or previous bank fraud) would need to be able to get an account. Currently the banking system actually extends credit to most people with normal accounts, since people expect to be able to the money transferred to them in a reasonable amount of time, rather than needing to wait for a transaction to become non-reversal which can take a really long time.

To be truly cash-like There would need to be a rapid non-reversible transaction mechanism. If transactions could be reversed for things like fraud, then it is not really cash-like, but more like one of the various forms of traditional banking. But of course, this makes it riskier for most consumers, to the point where organizations would be discouraging people from using it if they have any choice. If you have recently tried to do a wire transfer as an individual (perhaps as part of buying a house) both the bank and the receiving party make you jump through hoops, and want you to triple verify the number, and the bank will probably ask you to explain the transaction. Largely all of this is to protect you, as there are plenty of scammers who will send fake account numbers, plus plenty of headaches that can occur if the account numbers are off by even one digit.

And wire transfers are not actually fully non-reversible! Admittedly, banks will be reluctant to even try to reverse them unless: the bank messed up (sent the wrong amount, entered a different number than you told them, etc), the receiving party confirms the reversal (like might happen if an honest person receives a wire meant for someone else, Letting the initiating bank reverse it is safer than sending it back), or you can demonstrate that you did not authorize the transfer in the first place.

And this is not even considering the privacy concerns, since unlike paying by cash, law enforcement will likely be able to trace any transactions done with the CBDC, much like it is possible for them to trace credit card transactions. After all, I strongly doubt any such current will have the privacy protections of something like monero, even if it is crypto based.

Re: Ask HN: Why do we need central bank digital currency (CBDC)?

#40
Like you are five: The main driver inevitably boils down to governments wanting you cashless and using instead a currency that provides absolute observability (hence potential for further control) of your economic activity. The political class cannot resist the temptation to use that to mine resources and obedience out of everyone.

That's why China implemented it first as the chinese communist party keeps the country under relative economic freedom with absolute population behavioral control.

Corollary?

Our societies in this other side of the world aren't supposed to be vulnerable to such totalitarian measures, but are suffering a sort of contagion of that very same driver, but implemented slowly and in a more covert way. Got accelerated and more overt lately and it will be more towards the self-evident status.

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