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Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

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Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#31

Post by gbromios »

I really want to avoid invoking any cliches to the effect of "youth is wasted on the young" here, but even though that's an unfair generalization, there's still a grain of truth to the sentiment: there are certain aspects of life which truly cannot be understood except by irrevocable passage of time. I hate to say it, but many of the insights that might help you navigate your current situation are of that nature, so it's possibly that they could be misunderstood, but I'll try nonetheless.

One thing (among many) I didn't (couldn't) appreciate when I was your age, Is just how much of my life was still ahead of me. The notion that your path will be set in stone based solely on how you spend the next five years is silly, but it's an easy assumption to make, since it's what you're currently focused on, and (if your upbringing was anything like mine) there are probably lots of people insisting that this is a life-or-death situation.

Secondly (and I'm not sure whether this will come as a comfort or not), your dreams might change. What if you push through your current program and end up hating the field? Or get into a PhD in the US and hate it here? What if you become a medical researcher and find you hate that? Or decide to become a physician and hate it (while still harboring a love of machine learning)? And what if you suddenly decide that you'd like to pursue something altogether different than CS or medicine?

I'm not saying that because the outcome is unpredictable you should just choose a direction blindly. Rather, you shouldn't stress too much about whether your path will line up with your current passions. Ultimately, your interests may change in ways that you can't anticipate, but you're young, and (per paragraph 2) you'll have lots of time to change your mind in the future.

If this advice seems unhelpful, I understand (per paragraph 1), since none of it addresses what you should actually do. But, whether you realize it or not, this isn't actually a question about what you should do, it's a question about what you value in life. For what its worth, none of the imagined outcomes (ML PhD, Med School, SE) seem like a terrible fate to me, so you should just follow your heart.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#32

Post by the_only_law »

mikewarot wrote: post #24

My understanding is the growth in PhD holders far outstripped the slots they could fill in Academia in the US sometime around 1970. Why would you want to put yourself into such an oversupplied labor market? I assume your talents can be far better used in the private or government sectors. Fellow HN users: Am I mistaken?

So here’s my question, someone can probably explain here.

I want to do R&D work in an industrial capacity. The particular domain/industry is a very credentialized one. I have no interested in going in academia as a career (becoming a professor, etc.)

I look at industry/government roles doing that sort of thing and they want you to have prior research experience in the domain, if not flat out listing a PhD as a requirement. How do you get in that sort of role without the research experience of a PhD? I’ve heard plenty about the institutional corruption, financial sacrifices, etc. That stuff is all fine with me in the long run, nut admittedly the time-cost is a bit intimidating.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#33

Post by rwanda »

ibejoeb wrote: post #9

Just make sure you're not swapping out one slog for another. Is it that you lost interest in the material, or that it's the amount of work required to pursue it? I doubt that you're going to find medicine less mentally (and physically) demanding. I started a PhD and found that I just didn't love it enough. I think one's innate curiosity and drive regarding the investigation the subject matter needs to outweigh the un…

First of all, thanks for your input and sharing your experience. I think I'm a similar position to you for as so far that I don't really love math enough. My main motivator for doing it is to become more competent for other things I'm actually very interested in (algorithms, machine learning etc.). It's a means to an end and therefore a chore in some ways.

To put frame it in a more positive light: I'm confident that if I am able to grind through the first years of math, things will get much easier due to my much higher interest and a less workload during the latter years. There is some career/research advice that goes along the lines of "do what you think about when you shower". When I'm showering I often think about something relating to machine learning or similar.

As for medicine not being less mentally challenging, I don't think that holds true in my country. I know it's the case in most countries but here medicine is 6y and average study time is around 40h/week with only P/F grading.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#34

Post by dorena »

I studied one year of medicine in Switzerland and switched to something different afterwards (at ETH Zürich, a more technical university). My expectations of what medicine would be like were completely different than what it actually was. In my experience medicine was: - too many entitled people (due to the student selection process) - huge competition between the students (no one cooperating, or sharing learnings) - a lot of learning by heart (which I'm not good at & is very boring) - not very difficult to pass the exams

These were all reasons why I switched, but the main reason was the job I would end up with in the end. It's so much harder to work remote, have a good work life balance and move abroad (depending on where you live) once you start working than in other jobs.

I think even if you don't end up in machine learning in the end, having a strong computer science and math background opens you so many possibilities in this world that I would give it another go if I were you (after some rest, like others already recommended). Maybe you could make an exchange semester in another country? that can really help motivation wise :)

Good luck!!

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#35

Post by etrautmann »

Bringing machine learning skills to medicine (if you focus on medical research and the MD/PhD route) could give you a serious advantage if you're on the medical side and can code and understand ML. There are often advantages to having uncommon skills in adjacent areas. I agree with others here that you need to be highly motivated and in a good place to start a path like that, but it sounds like you're ambitious and planning ahead which is a great start.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#36

Post by rwanda »

tizzy wrote: post #10
aristofun wrote: post #4

> I find medicine to be as interesting as mathematics while the workload being significantly lower Dude, there’s something wrong either with your schools, or with your perception of reality. In any case, life is not a picnic, there’s nothing unusual in constantly putting extra effort to achieve something worthwhile.

Agreed. This quote stuck out to me. You either have a natural aptitude for medicine or you think the grass is greener on the other side. Maybe Dunning-Kruger effect. In any case, devote some time to the hard stuff. It will pay off.

OP here. To be clear, I'm referring to studying in school and not career-work. In my country it would be very non-controversial to say that the program I'm currently in is significantly harder and more time-consuming than medicine. I think this is due in part to the fact that medicine is 6 years here, as opposed to 4 years in some countries. Average workload for a medical student is around 40h/week including lectures with only P/F grading, while at my program it's around 52h/week on average and my guess is around 60h/week for good grades. Every one of my classmates who has a good GPA puts in 60h+/week.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#37

Post by hahamrfunnyguy »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #7
aristofun wrote: post #4

> I find medicine to be as interesting as mathematics while the workload being significantly lower Dude, there’s something wrong either with your schools, or with your perception of reality. In any case, life is not a picnic, there’s nothing unusual in constantly putting extra effort to achieve something worthwhile.

> Dude, there’s something wrong either with your schools, or with your perception of reality. Talk to some doctors. Ask what their workload is like. It turns out that software engineers are worked way, way harder.

Certainly not true in the US. Medical professionals often work double shifts and put in lots of hours. Being on call or working weekends is mandatory in many cases. Beyond that, the work environment is much more stressful, especially now. The patients' lives are in your hands, and on top of that you have to deal with being assaulted (yelled at, spit on, hit, etc) or making a mistake and being sued.

Having worked as a software engineer/developer, I can at that sometimes the work can be challenging but overall the job itself has been pretty easy and low-stress in comparison.

During the first half of my career, I put in a lot of extra hours but then I realized it wasn't going to help me get a raise or get promoted so I stopped doing that and stuck mostly to the 40 hour work week which I was being paid for.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#38

Post by rwanda »

dorena wrote: post #34

I studied one year of medicine in Switzerland and switched to something different afterwards (at ETH Zürich, a more technical university). My expectations of what medicine would be like were completely different than what it actually was. In my experience medicine was: - too many entitled people (due to the student selection process) - huge competition between the students (no one cooperating, or sharing learnings) -…

Thanks for the response! Interesting comment :) I do however suspect that the "entitlement" you see among medical students has more to due with societal prestige than selection process, but this is pure speculation of course.

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#39

Post by rwanda »

quantumite wrote: post #2

Honestly, you sound burned out. I wouldn't make any career- or life-altering decisions until after some rest. There is a reason you picked the program to begin with and while medicine may be a good alternative, you will likely feel the same way if you get burned out in that industry as well. Rest well friend!

This is very good advice and I feel like you've gotten at the heart of the issue. The way you frame it makes it obvious to me that what you're saying is very true, and is not something I've thought about as explicitly as you stated. Thank you!

Re: Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?

#40

Post by dorena »

rwanda wrote: post #38
dorena wrote: post #34

I studied one year of medicine in Switzerland and switched to something different afterwards (at ETH Zürich, a more technical university). My expectations of what medicine would be like were completely different than what it actually was. In my experience medicine was: - too many entitled people (due to the student selection process) - huge competition between the students (no one cooperating, or sharing learnings) -…

Thanks for the response! Interesting comment :) I do however suspect that the "entitlement" you see among medical students has more to due with societal prestige than selection process, but this is pure speculation of course.

Yeah that's probably true :D it was just hard to imagine myself working with this kind of people for the rest of my life :O (of course not everyone was like this...)
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