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Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

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Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#31
post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#32
Have the right pedigree and brand in resume is what all it matters in my experience for getting interviews easily. And all these with interview skills and having good profile itself would make interview round go really well and for people to even consider you worthy. From my experience here in India all these right credentials matter really more than Github and all these hacker type things.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#33
I've hired junior developers, and senior PMs, but never senior developers, so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. I would definitely continue to include side projects on your CV, especially if:

1. they are technologies you are unfamiliar with. It's an easy and effective way to demonstrate that you are eager to learn new things.

2. they are emerging technologies (crypto, VR, AI, etc). In most organizations being a senior engineer who doesn't get "stuck" or complacent is a plus.

I'm not sure why employers would not be looking at those things, they definitely should be, it's a treasure trove of information as to who you are and how you think.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#34
post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

I’d say that asking if they have anything to show off and not discounting them if they don’t is in bounds. Like extra credit that no one has to do and people can get the job without.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#35
Different people review resumes differently. Here's my take:

Important questions for me include: Can they build things? Do they have enough experience dealing with real-world deployments to avoid common pitfalls? Do they care about the domain? How long will they stick around?

You're correct that they're going to be of the most help early on, because they demonstrate real-world experience with production software. It's a great sign you'll be able to take a vaguely-specified user need and get something valuable done in production. But even more senior resumes sometimes still leave me wondering if they've worked at sufficiently big/bureaucratic places.

Assuming your resume demonstrates competence without the projects, then yes, they could just as easily count against you as for you.

If the project is one that's related to the domain and/or the tech stack, that's a positive sign that you're interested in what we're actually doing, and so joining us would give you something you could be very engaged in.

Otherwise, I'm going to be concerned that we're going to have to compete for your time and attention with your side project. That this is a day job you're just doing until the side project takes off. I might hire somebody like that, but one of the things I think about when hiring is ROI on my time, so if I can get somebody as good who is likely to focus better and stay longer, I'll hire them instead.

The particular side projects you list are of the kind that would be most concerning to me. They look like attempts to build actual businesses. And you have two of them going at once, which is a bad sign: if you can't focus on one of your commercial projects long enough to make is successful, maybe you won't focus on your actual job either. And there's something cold and unappealing about both of them to me. They are trying to compete with full commercial sites and prominently say they're the best, but when I try them out it doesn't seem that way.

In contrast, the kind of side project that I'd react positively to in more senior engineers is one that demonstrates competence without looking like it will be competitive, and bonus points if it's related to the domain somehow. Modest open-source projects, for example. Twitter bots. Niche Twilio apps. Small, fun services like mcbroken.com or typelit.io.

To me things like that indicate enjoyment of the work, a desire to create things, and an interest in serving users, all positive traits. But they do so without giving me questions about whether they employee will be able to focus on what they're getting paid for.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#36
Yes. Resume is an instrument for getting through a fairly unintelligent filter so probably nobody will even notice that these were side projects at the resume filtering stage. Be prepared to answer interview questions about how you have sufficient spare time to work on two projects at once though.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#37
post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

As someone with kids and side projects, I have doubts about "not having time".

I could do 2 hours of productivity after the kids go to sleep and I'd still have 2 hours for entertainment. I exercise too.

So let's make it even more reasonable. How about 30 minutes, 4 times a week?

>Meaningful progress

So then do an hour or 2? I make progress in 30 minutes and sometimes keep going. If the point is for a resume, you could even do a 1 or 2 week sprint.

I suppose you could even work on it while the kids are awake. My kids love Alphablocks.

If you don't have a personal side project, the issue isn't children. It's desire.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

As someone with kids and side projects, I have doubts about "not having time". I could do 2 hours of productivity after the kids go to sleep and I'd still have 2 hours for entertainment. I exercise too. So let's make it even more reasonable. How about 30 minutes, 4 times a week? >Meaningful progress So then do an hour or 2? I make progress in 30 minutes and sometimes keep going. If the point is for a resume, you coul…

it's not that i don't have time -- i do have time. but i don't want to write code as side projects anymore.

i much rather do something else. play a videogame, read a book, watch series. i already work 8~10h a day, after that, i want chill and think about something else that is not code.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#39
My experience is that side projects are 90% ignored. They are treated strictly as line items like education.

I got furious tired of this so on my last resume I treated my employment history strictly as employment history. A list of employers with dates and dates of promotions plus a sentence or two what I worked on. Supremely lowered emphasis.

I also put my personal projects into a separate section above my employment history. Between my personal projects and employment history I put in a small two paragraph section for personal bio. In this bio I mention how long I have been programming, some of my accomplishments. I also explicitly mention to carefully consider my personal projects to make an informed decision if I will be a good fit for their organization and that two of my personal projects contain over a thousand commits. I follow up that up with a mention that I am not waiting on administrative approval or a budget authorization to innovate and that these personal projects are years of experience other developers do not have.

This a recent change I have made so I cannot say if it’s successful.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#40
post #28

To hiring folks: find better ways to evaluate candidates than a resume. Preferably an evidenced based assessment that measures actual skills for the job and not the esoteric witchcraft required to discern what _you_ think is important in a resume. The only thing I look for in a resume is number of years doing development and a very rough assessment that the experience there fits with what we asked for in the job desc…

Yeah, I agree with you on evidenced-based assessment. Our hiring process has two practical portions meant to mirror important parts of the daily work. It lets me care very little about resumes as far as technical skill goes. Sometimes colleagues will ask about a candidate, "Where did they go to school?" I will have no idea, because I don't care.

That said, resumes are still useful to me for things I can't test in a couple hours. E.g.: How long is this person likely to stay? What motivates them? What kinds of environment are they used to/comfortable in?

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