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Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

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Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#31

Post by beagle3 »

vannevar wrote: post #28
beagle3 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that make a difference if you don't exhaust the work-available-to-do? You could work just 1 hour a day; but you can similarly just work 10 minutes out of every hour you bill. If you're saying "well, yes, but it's not considered ethical on hourly rates and considered ethical on daily rates" - then our experience differs.

I think you've answered your own question. Between working one hour out of the day, or ten minutes out of each hour, which is actually more feasible and likely? In a day rate situation, if you're blocked by client inaction, they're still paying you daily. In an hourly situation, that is generally not the case. And if you can truly satisfy client obligations working only an hour a day (very unlikely), then yes, you'd…

Yes, I answered it - and in my experience, and I do have relevant experience, it’s not acceptable unless (a) blocking and (b) properly agreed and documented in the agreement that downtime waiting for client is billed at full rate. YMMV - either way, unless blocking is common, the day rate vs hourly rate is just a change of unit. Blocking is not common in well run projects I’ve been involved in, and not even in those that were badly run (though more than the well run)

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#33

Post by aspectmin »

harvester5000 wrote: post #7

As a follow up - how do you all find work? ML engineer here, working in Toronto for four years.

You're welcome to drop me an email. We do some work in Canada (I'm a displaced Canadian myself): jan @ghostbytes.com

A good percentage of our work is remote (save for the robotics stuff, which is very hands on).

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#34

Post by aspectmin »

snicky wrote: post #21

I'm wondering how one converts to a data scientist or ML engineer from a pure web development background without going back to school? I've been a backend developer for many years and I'm already a bit bored with working on software-only products. Would love to move on with my career to a point where I could have some more influence on what's happening in the real world off the web. Where did you start?

I went from Cybersecurity (Infosec) to Data Science/ML. If you have interest/passion, it's totally doable. I get asked this kind of question a lot, so I created a listing of the stuff I've found most useful (books, online classes, etc). You can find it at

http://www.atomicml.com

If you have stuff you think I should add, please let me know! (jan @ghostbytes.com)

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#35

Post by aspectmin »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #26
drugme wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So after "letting them negotiate you down" -- what's the actual, final, median rate we're talking about here, please?

I would say $180-$200.

I would agree with this. I have a number of friends doing Data Science consulting (PowerBI/Tableau/etc), and it seems like they average out around the $180-200 range. I think they're undercharging, and I've had no problems getting business/repeat business up to around $250. Beyond that and you're in the bailiwick of the Accentures and their ilk.

The more projects you do, the more repeat business, the better you get, and the more you learn to not underprice you work (which helps you focus on the good projects where you can have the most impact). It pretty much compounds.

For the hourly stuff, I've had very little pushback until I get much above $250. Most of that work is break/fix. As above, I much prefer to do project based work and bid on a project by project basis. (Gives me incentive to work harder/faster, and gives the customers a predictable price. I've found a lot of them are wary of open-top ended contracts).

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#36

Post by seanwilson »

joshuamorton wrote: post #12
beagle3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense mathematically - changing the unit of measurement (and perhaps rounding) cannot make a real difference unless substantially all of your results are between 0.5 and 1.5 unit. If you said “charge by project/milestone”, your reasoning makes sense. The people who charge a lot by hour (lawyers, tax specialists etc) will often charge in 15 minute increments. Even if you charge by day, tou’ll find you ha…

Another way of putting this might be "charge by the sprint". You don't track your time specifically, you do report back on your progress each week/two, and the company makes renewal decisions off of that. The point is to not subdivide the week.

Can you explain more how this works? So you get paid upfront for a e.g. two week sprint where you say what you think you'll get done in that sprint and the client picks if they want to renew for the next sprint based on a progress review at the end?

How does this work out if you finish all the tasks in the sprint really quickly or barely finish any in terms of client happiness? What are the benefits over charging per day or week?

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#37

Post by seanwilson »

vannevar wrote: post #29
seanwilson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a day rate works differently; it basically says that for the duration of the contract, you will get paid each day you're on contract, regardless of the actual number of hours worked. You might work more than 8 hours a day, you might work less. Either way, you get paid for the day. Can you explain the advantages daily billing has overly hourly billing when the client has a constant stream of work to keep you bus…

A day rate can certainly work against you, in the same way that salary can work against you, if there's more work to be done than can be fit into X number of days at 8 hrs/day. You may end up working 12 hour days for the duration. I think the convenience of a day rate is more about not having to track work at a tight level of granularity, and having a guaranteed minimum per day, than it is about pocketing efficiencie…

One of the core benefits I think of fixed price is you have a large incentive to be efficient, which you don't have so much with hourly, daily or weekly billing. Do you know any other payment structures that encourage efficiency in the same way? There's milestone based billing which is similar to fixed price but requires more planning.

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#38

Post by seanwilson »

aspectmin wrote: post #35
DamnYuppie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say $180-$200.

I would agree with this. I have a number of friends doing Data Science consulting (PowerBI/Tableau/etc), and it seems like they average out around the $180-200 range. I think they're undercharging, and I've had no problems getting business/repeat business up to around $250. Beyond that and you're in the bailiwick of the Accentures and their ilk. The more projects you do, the more repeat business, the better you get,…

What's your effective day rate using on an average project based price if you don't mind sharing?

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#39

Post by aspectmin »

seanwilson wrote: post #38
aspectmin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with this. I have a number of friends doing Data Science consulting (PowerBI/Tableau/etc), and it seems like they average out around the $180-200 range. I think they're undercharging, and I've had no problems getting business/repeat business up to around $250. Beyond that and you're in the bailiwick of the Accentures and their ilk. The more projects you do, the more repeat business, the better you get,…

What's your effective day rate using on an average project based price if you don't mind sharing?

Ooo. Good question. I will admit I haven't run the numbers recently. Will do so and post.

Re: Ask HN: Machine learning contractors, how much do you charge hourly?

#40

Post by snicky »

aspectmin wrote: post #34
snicky wrote: post #21

I'm wondering how one converts to a data scientist or ML engineer from a pure web development background without going back to school? I've been a backend developer for many years and I'm already a bit bored with working on software-only products. Would love to move on with my career to a point where I could have some more influence on what's happening in the real world off the web. Where did you start?

I went from Cybersecurity (Infosec) to Data Science/ML. If you have interest/passion, it's totally doable. I get asked this kind of question a lot, so I created a listing of the stuff I've found most useful (books, online classes, etc). You can find it at http://www.atomicml.com If you have stuff you think I should add, please let me know! (jan @ghostbytes.com)

Good stuff, thanks.
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