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Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

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Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#31

Post by keefe »

throwaway52 wrote: post #6
michael_dorfman wrote: post #2

Let's review: you're not a co-founder, and have no equity. Vague promises have been made about you "getting a share", but no commitments. The co-founders all went on vacation immediately prior to a launch, but you cancelled yours to get the product ready. The business is foundering, and you're not convinced that the co-founders are responding to the challenges in the right way, and you suspect the company will run ou…

Well when you put it like that... All kidding aside, I think that I've been stuck in a forest for the trees mode. From the outside, I think you're able to see whats going on a lot better than I. Thanks for that.

Don't get too excited about randomly leaving unless you have a particular plan in mind. If you don't have equity, it's definitely a good idea to separate yourself emotionally - but if you've got a steady paycheck, there's no reason not to keep cashing them until you have your next step sorted.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#32

Post by petervandijck »

throwaway52 wrote: post #10
gaius wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they only want to give you a share when they're revenue-neutral? A limited company, their liability is extremely limited, I'm assuming it's not a partnership. There's no reason for them not to give you equity right now .

From what they said was that to give out shares at this point would require additional lawyer fees. They are already formed as an S corp (I believe), so I'm not sure how much lawyer fees would be required, but nevertheless, I was young and naive when I first started (this is my first startup) and probably should have pushed a bit harder.

"give out shares at this point would require additional lawyer fees" -> translate: they don't want to give you shares.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#33

Post by phjohnst »

throwaway52 wrote: post #19
swombat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very fact that they have both COO and CEO in startup mode is a huge red flag, btw. That "reply wave" that you describe is also an enormous wtf. Run.

The first flag was when they told me that not to worry, when we brought on a second programmer, he would report to me. Heh.

So two programmers and the company would already have 4 levels of hierarchy? No thanks.

Says something about their idea of a 'business'

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#34

Post by kenjackson »

I'd like to add that the founders simply aren't pulling their weight. And one thing I've learned is founders don't get more generous over time.

A good founder, who cares about their employees would get the necessary legal instruments to get you shares. Period. A good founder would (a) probably also cancel vacation before launch, but (b) if they all took vacation, they'd make sure you took vacation after the launch completed.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#35

Post by bl4k »

throwaway52 wrote: post #6
michael_dorfman wrote: post #2

Let's review: you're not a co-founder, and have no equity. Vague promises have been made about you "getting a share", but no commitments. The co-founders all went on vacation immediately prior to a launch, but you cancelled yours to get the product ready. The business is foundering, and you're not convinced that the co-founders are responding to the challenges in the right way, and you suspect the company will run ou…

Well when you put it like that... All kidding aside, I think that I've been stuck in a forest for the trees mode. From the outside, I think you're able to see whats going on a lot better than I. Thanks for that.

I can't agree with the comment above enough.

I have seen this situation far too many times (both with myself earlier in my career and with friends) - employees feel loyalty to their employer, but it is a one-way street. You have the added pressure of shouldering all of the technical work for the company.

There are too many red flags in your story (legal fees being too high to give you stock should tell you how much they really value your work). I think it is shocking that they didn't put you on a stock vesting schedule as soon as your trial period is up, considering that you are building the product. You should be the CTO/VP of this company, and part of that founding group - yet they want you to build the tech but treat you as a low-level employee.

Find a new role and quit asap. You were smart enough to see that the company is sinking, so use the experience you have gained from working for this company to find yourself a good role in another startup, or work on your own and teach these lessons to others as a consultant.

The alternative is an example that I went through myself. I was in a similar situation - in the financial field with a solid group of founders, the only tech guy etc. The company (this was 99-00) was running out of money. I re-negotiated my role to be the CTO, negotiated a solid slice of the company stock and built a fresh new prototype of our platform in 6 weeks - complete with integrated analytics, customer management and support (using a third party platform). We used the prototype and business plan to raise a new round - I got a pay kick at that point and a budget to bring in 5-6 developers. We fired a lot of the business people who were not doing a lot (they bought their big financial company work ethic with them to the startup). 18 months later we were acquired by a large financial firm, which was a solid outcome for all involved.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#37

Post by throwaway52 »

keefe wrote: post #31
throwaway52 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when you put it like that... All kidding aside, I think that I've been stuck in a forest for the trees mode. From the outside, I think you're able to see whats going on a lot better than I. Thanks for that.

Don't get too excited about randomly leaving unless you have a particular plan in mind. If you don't have equity, it's definitely a good idea to separate yourself emotionally - but if you've got a steady paycheck, there's no reason not to keep cashing them until you have your next step sorted.

This is spot on. I think at this point I'm seeing the light, but just because things are looking like they'll end badly doesn't mean I'll put myself in a worse position because of it. Good call.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#38

Post by mgkimsal »

throwaway52 wrote: post #21

Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?

You can give notice, but in many positions, you'll be out the door within the hour. Nothin personal, but that's how it is. I've given 2 weeks notice and been escorted out the door within 30 minutes, and I've given 2 weeks noticed and asked to stay longer. Whatever you give, be prepared that that's your last day, and plan accordingly. They may see it as an act of betrayal or a loyalty issue, and will have you leave that moment. Or they may not.

Stop thinking in terms of this being a 'startup'. That term means almost nothing any more, given that companies with millions in funding that have been around for >2 years are still called 'startups' in some quarters. You work for a business, and may leave. Be prepared to leave. Give them a notice that you'll work out 2 weeks to wrap up and document stuff, train a replacement, etc. Don't give any more consideration to the long term health of this org - they've not given you any consideration. To that end, don't go out of your way to be a jerk, whether that's withholding info, trashing files, installing spyware, etc (I've seen it all happen). Just be professional and get out.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#39

Post by cedsav »

From your description, I'm guessing that the company will go under the day you quit. The founders can go on for a while on empty, but they need you if for any of their hail mary plans to have a chance to succeed.

However, their only obligation to you is payroll. As long as they can pay you, they surely expect you to keep working for the team, and they probably wouldn't be happy if you jumped ship early.

Obviously, it's up to them to be candid about the situation and give you advance notice if money runs out. So, if I were you I would put it on the table. Make sure they understand you will quit if they can't pay you, and that you expect them to give you 30 day notice.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#40

Post by gte910h »

throwaway52 wrote: post #12
gte910h wrote: post #3

You're just an employee, if you feel your company is going under, find other employment. Once you find another offer, they'll either offer you a share of the company to stay, or you can leave.

This is probably true -- though I've been in situations like that before (swap shares for money) and never take them as I just don't think that type of very passive "threat" (for lack of a better term) is ever fruitful. But, on the other hand, I don't have a ton of business experience, so maybe it would work out. Do you have any experience in those situations? Staying after discussing leaving?

I'm not talking shares for money: I'm talking about they pony up a share and money like they're getting if they want you to suffer through the broken/poor part of the companies existence.
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