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Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

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Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#31

Post by gambiting »

afarrell wrote: post #15
NicenJehr wrote: post #9

Freedom of Information: Its rediculous that one can be jailed, thieved or killed for: possessing someone else's number, telling someone a secret number, or refusing to share the correct number with someone. These problems only exist because society believes in, and enforces, ownership of ideas

So, given that a jpg is just a very large number, I infer from your framing thst you are in favor of legalizing: - leaking someone's private medical records - sending weapons designs to a foreign power - selling photos of child abuse Correct?

All three actions you listed can remain illegal, while owning the information(or to keep with the analogy "a very large number") should be fully legal.

It's not illegal to have a case full of medical records, but stealing them or releasing them without permission is illegal, no?

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#32

Post by Akarnani »

The Right To The Best Available Deal:

To have all applicable financial / tax regulations applied to you automatically.

This way you don't have to discover tax breaks/credits/deductions — they just get applied to you.

This is important and effects something like 250M Americans.

Outside of criminal and civil law, much of the US system of government is enforced financially through the tax code.

The benefits of the Internal Revenue Code are applied unevenly because richer people are able to develop the sophistication or acquire service providers who help them make sure they are getting the best available deal.

Can you imagine if hackers/coders got better deals on products Amazon then non-coders? It would be absurd to say "well, learn to code or higher an engineer and you'll save $1000 a year!" That's a pretty close metaphor—we say "get financially literate! The information is out there! get an accountant!".

Computers, tech, machine learning, and AI are great at making sure all Americans get The Best Deal Available.

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#33

Post by Akarnani »

The Right To The Best Available Deal:

To have all applicable financial / tax regulations applied to you automatically.

This way you don't have to discover tax breaks/credits/deductions — they just get applied to you.

This is important and effects something like 250M Americans.

Outside of criminal and civil law, much of the US system of government is enforced financially through the tax code.

The benefits of the code are applied unevenly because richer people are able to develop the sophistication or acquire service providers who help them make sure they are getting the best available deal.

Computers, tech, machine learning, and AI are great at making this easy.

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#34

Post by beaconstudios »

Akarnani wrote: post #32

The Right To The Best Available Deal: To have all applicable financial / tax regulations applied to you automatically. This way you don't have to discover tax breaks/credits/deductions — they just get applied to you. This is important and effects something like 250M Americans. Outside of criminal and civil law, much of the US system of government is enforced financially through the tax code. The benefits of the Inter…

I wonder if having tax breaks apply to everyone that could take them would genuinely cause a Cloward-Piven collapse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy, it's a strategy for collapsing a welfare state by doing exactly what you described, based on the theory that welfare benefits and tax deductions are not designed to handle 100% use).

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#36

Post by afarrell »

xg15 wrote: post #25
vivekd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you know you don't have to enforce them you make make your declaration say anything you want. Real, worthwhile documents like the United States Constitution mean something because you can take it into a courtroom and enforce it. These things aren't real declarations because they don't provide any real rights that you can enforce, just fancy PR documents. Things like >Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, i…

The purpose is different. The declaration of human rights is not a concrete, enforceable document but a common moral and philosophical base line that people commit to and that can e.g. influence making (or applying) laws. It's less about where we are and more about where we want to go. There are always people who bring in extreme cultural relativism to argue for all kinds of ethical transgressions: "Hey, who says chi…

> that people commit to

The parent is arguing that people haven't actually committed to them because they clearly haven't paid the cost actually involved in that commitment.

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#37

Post by igk »

gambiting wrote: post #30
meric wrote: post #29

Is "right" the correct abstraction? An alternative might be "obligation". Bill of obligations: Article 1: All parents are obligated to either support their children and provide their physical and educational needs, and give them the emotional support they need to grow up or leave them up for adoption at the earliest opportunity. Article 2: Adult children must financially support their parents by a percentage of their…

This goes directly against personal freedom though, especially points 2-4. What if you were abused by your parents and/or had some other issues with them, and you haven't had any contact with them for 30 years? Should you still pay them after they get over the age of 65? In general, the whole idea is upsetting to me, over here in EU we pay massive taxes but they guarantee people in need are taken care off, "garnishin…

It's a difference in conception...in Europe, the idea of "positive freedom" is more prevalent...we care about being able to actually do things in all cases, even if we are in a bad situation. You have a right to education, health care, political participation etc., and part of that right is to be able to actually do it (i.e., "I could if I chose not to work today, but then I can't eat"). Property is a means to freedom, not an end, and can be touched more easily. Hence, taxes are (more) ok.

In the the states, I feel there is still the idea of property as a basis for freedom. "Negative freedom" - don't force me to do things, don't touch my house, don't touch my money, don't restrict what I could theoretically do if I have the means - is more dominant. Hence, people don't seem to like the idea of having to pay for "other peoples freedom". It's more palatable to think of taking care of just your kids/relatives - there is a limited number of them, and you can probably do that without actually giving up a lot of property. Buy a big house, move your parents in there, you still have a big house afterwards.

Of course, this also leads to (or is equivalent) to a "fuck the poor" mindset

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#38

Post by zebrafish »

I haven't seen anything on here about the right to be forgotten which I believe is extremely important.

I also think the right to human autonomy is absolutely crucial. I want the freedom to choose to drive my own vehicle. I don't want a self-driving vehicle to dictate where I can and cannot go.

I really think, and this is entering muddy waters, that there should be a right to anonymity. I should be able to say or do things without people knowing who I am.

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#39

Post by igk »

zebrafish wrote: post #38

I haven't seen anything on here about the right to be forgotten which I believe is extremely important. I also think the right to human autonomy is absolutely crucial. I want the freedom to choose to drive my own vehicle. I don't want a self-driving vehicle to dictate where I can and cannot go. I really think, and this is entering muddy waters, that there should be a right to anonymity. I should be able to say or do…

Right to be forgotten is iffy, because we should have the right to hold public figures accountable, and that is where it would be mostly used. If you get arrested for drunk driving, lose all respectability in your community, and then remove it form the net, your life is still fucked. But if you are Donald Trump, having the right to immediately depublish things until it is proven that you are person if interest is usefull.

A right to privacy and a data letter (every outlet and company must inform you via mail about any data, articles etc on their servers/in their publication in which personal information about you is involved, if they are either supplying a service or writing the story) would fill most of that niche in my opinion

Right to autonomy I agree, that is basically stallmann. First sale doctrine, freedom to tinker, software freedom...things like this

Right to anonymity goes into dangerous territory again...you should have a right to not be surveilled(privacy), which makes it harder to connect you to your speech (good). But if somebody figures it out,having the right to stop that is ...dangerous again.Especially with the bullshit idea that corporate money is speech, that right would make it illegal to unmask bribery

Re: Ask HN: What would you like to see included in a 21st Century Bill of Rights?

#40

Post by meric »

igk wrote: post #37
gambiting wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes directly against personal freedom though, especially points 2-4. What if you were abused by your parents and/or had some other issues with them, and you haven't had any contact with them for 30 years? Should you still pay them after they get over the age of 65? In general, the whole idea is upsetting to me, over here in EU we pay massive taxes but they guarantee people in need are taken care off, "garnishin…

It's a difference in conception...in Europe, the idea of "positive freedom" is more prevalent...we care about being able to actually do things in all cases, even if we are in a bad situation. You have a right to education, health care, political participation etc., and part of that right is to be able to actually do it (i.e., "I could if I chose not to work today, but then I can't eat"). Property is a means to freedo…

A 2.5% annual wealth tax that goes to the nearest 20 families who are less well-off, split equally.
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