Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you expect someone to write you flood insurance on a house without knowing where that house is located? Should car insurance companies treat a 16 year old with a WRX and a 45 year old with a Camry as equivalent? It's really pretty bizarre that we expect people to underwrite our health without any insight into what risks we choose to take with it. We chose the free market as our approach to health insurance, we…
Does your car insurance company require you to install a GPS tracker in your car so they can keep track of everywhere you go? Because that would be much more analogous to what the parent describes.
Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
31–40 of 50 posts
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the insight. I think you bring a very good perspective to this. Although I am not very sure, what you really mean by saying "a lot of lifestyle changes needed to promote genuine health aren't really incorporated"...do you mean the employers don't promote them? Or the incentives you are relating to don't fall under the "wellness program" benefits in general to receive a credit/discount (from the standpoint…
I think he means that they promote the aspects of wellness that are easily observable, because these are the things that an insurer pays attention to when setting a price. For instance, an insurer won't take any interest in your diet, because that's hard to measure, but they will take a keen interest in your BMI and cardiovascular fitness.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#33If you look a little deeper, the foundation of the concept of "Wellness Programs" is to raise all rates paid by employees across the board, then provide discounts for behaviors that are approved (basically sharing PMI data with a 3rd party). In the US this is because - to my understanding - laws prevent insurance companies and companies from 'discriminating' in their pricing. As in, they can't penalize most people fo…
> As in, healthier diet of fresh foods, better rest at night, free access to exercise facilities. Well of course not; it might cost the company money to make those things available.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. In your case, it looks the ratio of info/value is really high. Honestly, this is the first time I have heard such an exploitation of personal health related data from an employer. Was this a large org? (Would understand if a small startup did this..perhaps lack of know-how. Still very alarming though.)
Yes, a large org; an electrical and gas utility company.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As in, healthier diet of fresh foods, better rest at night, free access to exercise facilities. Well of course not; it might cost the company money to make those things available.
Actually, that's the point of discussion - Is the ratio of (money spent on incentives):(money saved in insurance costs), high or low?
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah but how? There aren't enough primary care doctors and the work is being farmed out to nurse practitioners and physician's assistants (and anyone who says the quality of care is just the same hasn't experienced it)
> There aren't enough primary care doctors and the work is being farmed out to nurse practitioners and physician's assistants Thanks for the insight, but is there any empirical evidence here?
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does your car insurance company require you to install a GPS tracker in your car so they can keep track of everywhere you go? Because that would be much more analogous to what the parent describes.
Insurers these days offer a discount for safe driving based on a device in the OBD-II port, yes. There are also some nontraditional insurance companies that charge per mile based on such a device.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Insurers these days offer a discount for safe driving based on a device in the OBD-II port, yes. There are also some nontraditional insurance companies that charge per mile based on such a device.
Some offer them; I do not choose to use one.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren't auto insurance (your choice of provider) and employer provided health insurance (no choice) tangential things?
Are they? Edit: Even if you decide not to opt-out of employer provided coverage, you don't have to participate in the wellness program, just as you don't have to participate in the gps tracking.
Re: Ask HN: Do wellness incentives help employers save money on taxes and insurance?
#40Take the case of an employer with 50,000+ employees. Why 50,000+? Because as of mid-2015 this is the only set of employers where the economics have shown that wellness programs create an ROI. Below that, accountants have not been able to demonstrate a clear economic investment across the board, it is much more on a case-by-case basis. So if you are below 50,000 employees, the answer to your question would be, "In general, there is nothing in it economically for employers, other than they feel good, their HR department is being hornswoggled by salespeople, or they have done some clear, good accounting with a record of wellness programs going back years which have demonstrated some positive correlation between better health and some indicator for the bottom line of their business."
If you are talking about the 50,000+ employee category, then in general there are economic benefits which can be proven in the world of accounting.
Health insurance companies (or more appropriately termed, Health Management Organizations, HMOs) quote out a given employer's rates based upon the risk pool made up of all of the employees. There is little to no leak of information between the HMO and an employer, because the information used is classified as Personal Health Information (PHI), which has very strict standards for how it is stored, the loss or misappropriation of which is a felony that can result in prison time. The employer does not see this PHI - that information is shared between healthcare providers (hospitals and clinics) and the HMOs. So when an employer goes to an HMO to get a quote, the HMO takes all of the PHI they have on the individuals within that employer's organization, and creates a quote based upon how they see that risk pool.
If an employer with a large number of employees, let's say Nationwide Red Dot Retail Store, Inc. (NRDS Inc), partakes in a given wellness program, they will receive a discount on that underwriting based upon the types of wellness programs they provide for their employees. These discount offerings are determined by data scientists and project managers who work at the HMO, and are geared toward maximizing profit for the HMO. For example, those data scientists may find that by offering people $20 to all employees to participate in a health survey, the number of smokers within that pool of employees goes down by 0.5%, which means that the cost to cover them goes down by 1%, which means they would offer some discount less than 1% to NRDS Inc. However, the accountants and data scientists at NRDS Inc., are no dummies, so they may take a look and see that their employee turnover rate is X%, so that particular offering doesn't make sense of them economically, because by next quarter they will have a whole new set of smokers they will have to pay money to, as a part of the wellness program, only to have them leave 3-4 months later.
Wellness programs are meant to use psychology to trick, not force, people into changing their health habits. People do not react well to being forced into things. Americans particularly, do not react well to being forced into things. You may read some other responses to this question giving you an impression that people are being penalized for their decisions and choices.
Here's a straw-man argument for you: let's say there was a country called, "Amazing Programmerlandia Island," and you could hire the most incredible, genius, friendly programmers who know tons of languages to help you with your startup there for $10/hour. There's just one problem. About 50% of them love to do Crocodil, and it is illegal to check whether they are addicts before you hire them, and illegal to fire them just because they do Crocodil, and you have to pay for rehabs. Would you take any opportunity you could to, "hack," the system and try to lower the number of potential Crocodil addicts in your employee pool with some back-door system? Of course you would, this is Amazing Programmerlandia we're talking about here, tons of money to be made for just a tiny investment!
This spurious example basically demonstrates the mindset of HR departments when they buy into wellness programs. The economics change based upon the size of the company, and the numbers a company may have - it is not an, "across the board thing."
To find out more about the ROI of Wellness Programs, I recommend you Google individual companies names, and reports on the ROI from that particular company, from that company's point of view, not from the HMO's point of view, or from an independent paper (from a place like RAND) or from the Government. I could see the Federal Government funding studies which support wellness programs regardless of their true ROI, and asking the HMOs what they think is like askign the fox to guard the chicken coop.
There is no real tax benefits that I am aware of for engaging in wellness programs, the potential returns are only based upon lowered underwriting costs - although if I am wrong on that, please correct me.