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Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#31
post #25

Let's say you absolutely want to stay in 9-5... than I would constantly propose interesting projects inside the company. That way over time I would work on more exciting stuff.

Better yet, prototype interesting projects. Managers love turning down proposals. They are a bit less likely to turn down something that already has working code, even if it's just a proof-of-concept.

Totally agree on this. I'm on it at this very moment :)

And I'm telling you, even then, convincing managers is not easier than convincing any other investor.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#32
post #18

I work at my own startup where I manage my own time and usually, the best time to read/learn is when I get stuck in the process of building something. Reading hacker news, stack overflow or even researching ideas on how to get through the problem in what I´m building allows me to "merge" learning and building. It´s hard to build stuff in Erlang and learning Lisp at the same time, for example. Try to merge both activi…

What you're saying is similar to what I am trying to do:

Take up projects which are 60% stuff you know how to do and 40% things you'd like to learn (the numbers are just made up, but you get the point). Even better, get paid for learning (e.g. competition with prizes or learning in a corporate environment)

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#33

The dedication to continual education is difficult and something that you have to fight for. Some employers are more understanding than others. If you fail to keep learning, your skills will be obsolete and it will be harder to find work.

Worse if down the road, you find yourself not being able to build the stuff you'd like to build.

Finding a job is hard. Finding your passion is much harder.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#34
post #29
post #24

The assumption is that learning things increases your execution time. In the very short term this is true. However, if you'd spent all the time learning the things that you wanted to learn, how much more productive would you be? It's like Jeff Bezos said: "I always tell people, if we have a good quarter it's because of the work we did three, four, and five years ago. It's not because we did a good job this quarter."…

In consulting, it's usually not your employer that pushes you. It's your clients. In a startup, it's either your investors or your customer (hopefully). Either way, there's always forces that want you to execute instead of learn. There's no direct visible gain from you learning. It's like climate change. It's important, but noone in power cares. I totally agree with your long term statement. And I do also agree with…

Part of it is that you need to find ways to justify learning things. It's really easy to learn things that have a direct impact on your job. You may be different, but I know programmers who won't even learn things that directly impact their jobs. And unless it will take a very significant chunk of time, it's usually pretty easy to make this kind of learning transparent to clients and managers. You might be surprised at how much you can learn just by spending the extra couple of hours learning to do something the "right way" rather than just sticking to what you know.

Of course, if that's something you're already doing, kudos. Now, if we're talking about things that don't apply to anything at all, your choices are either going to have to be:

1. Find a way to "sneak in" an hour or two a week if it doesn't interfere with your tasks. 2. Learn it on your own time.

If your management/clients aren't going to allow option 1, you may just have to decide whether you want to learn on your own time or if you want to find a job where you can spend a bit of time learning.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#35
I had a similar experience in my first year after college working for BigCo IT. I'm somewhat surprised that you went through this at a tech company, so I guess "big" is an important factor.

Initially I thought that as with my high school programming job, I'd learn a lot at work. I also bought into a certain sense of obligation: "I'm salaried, so work doesn't stop after 8 hours a day!" I came to realize that work wouldn't be completely intellectually fulfilling, and that I value intellectual growth over corporate loyalty. I decided to explicitly dedicate time for intellectual advancement apart from my regular job responsibilities.

So, my first antidote to intellectual stagnation was to apply for tuition reimbursement and enroll as a part-time grad student. I made arrangements to work half days on MWF or take very long lunches TT. Real-life lectures are better than online ones because you can ask questions, and the homeworks and exams are very helpful for giving you an objective reference on your progress.

That didn't help my salary or my future job prospects (as far as I can tell), but I'm very glad I did it. I think it worked out well for my employer during that time, too, because it kept me happy enough stick around at a lowish salary for a couple years when I was performing very well but not feeling very challenged at work.

The second thing is that I maintained my ACM membership and read Queue and CACM. I think that helps me to stay somewhat aware of the progress of the field. I've used the digital library several times to help me with particularly thorny programming problems at work.

Finally, if you're not doing new stuff at work, try to motivate yourself to do something new at home. Maybe you just implement an algorithm you read about from CACM Research Highlights or whatever, or maybe you join a programming club and volunteer to teach a topic. I think it's very important to keep doing and not just reading.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#36
post #3

I learn by building stuff. Being able to show off something you've built is better than showing a certificate for something you studied for.

It sounds easy to do so. Too often however, I find myself reading how-tos and copy-pasting tutorials while building stuff...and forgetting everything after I finished. I have the feeling that google has significantly changed the way I store things in my head (for the better or worse). Instead of remembering how things are done and why so, I at best save a mental hyperlink to the information or worse, I just rely on g…

Ok, seems like I'm the only one with googlelitis.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#37
post #32
post #18

I work at my own startup where I manage my own time and usually, the best time to read/learn is when I get stuck in the process of building something. Reading hacker news, stack overflow or even researching ideas on how to get through the problem in what I´m building allows me to "merge" learning and building. It´s hard to build stuff in Erlang and learning Lisp at the same time, for example. Try to merge both activi…

What you're saying is similar to what I am trying to do: Take up projects which are 60% stuff you know how to do and 40% things you'd like to learn (the numbers are just made up, but you get the point). Even better, get paid for learning (e.g. competition with prizes or learning in a corporate environment)

Exactly, getting paid for learning is the sweet spot.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#38
I am struggling with that same problem since I started my first job after graduation. For many times I had the feeling to have sacrificed myself and my personal interest for my career (= someoneelse).

Only recently, I realized that this was a good experience nevertheless, but which has to stop now. It was good because it made it clear to me, what my preferences were as well as my strength and weaknesses. In other words who I am. Now I am taking my time for my interests (meditation, art and self-consciousness). This leads me to the following main messages as answer to your questions:

1.) You need to learn what you really want from life. And this, like every learning process, takes time and detours.

If you want to learn technology-related stuff, then you chances are pretty high that you may find an employee that is willing to give you freedom for personal projects, where you can learn and experience on your own (i.e. google's "Innovation Time Off"). If this isn't possible where you are now, then you may consider looking for another job where you can bargain this as part of your contract.

If, instead, we are talking about learning for personal growth or "self education" as Ixiaus wrote, then it becomes really interesting. Here I agree with Ixiaus. One way is to make some sacrifices for what you really want to do: e.g. earning less money but having more time for "self education". If your are ready for that, then look for a part-time job indeed, or build-up a sustainable startup were you don't have to make millions a year and report to a venture capitalist, but instead where earning some $10k is enough.

2.) Admit and be aware of your weaknesses. Several times, I find myself blaming myself for not being able to do this or to do that in the way and speed I wish it to be done. And when I have the time, I sometimes find myself spending that rare time with whatever.

But this is ok, as long as I continue working on my self, gradually improving the conscience use of my time. In particular, consider this: 6 hours of deep sleep are enough. This gives me some extra hours in the early morning and/or late evening for practising whatever I want to (meditation and yoga). Discipline is key, I always have to remember!

3.) The more dependent you are (the more money you want or believe to need or need), the less time you will have for "self education".

The dependencies can come from difference sources: your employees, your venture capitalist, your customers, your spouse, your children, ...., your expectations. Each of those relationships are chains around your neck. One first need to be aware of them, not imperatively avoid them. Then one can gently work towards reducing those dependencies, if one wishes to do so.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#39
post #31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better yet, prototype interesting projects. Managers love turning down proposals. They are a bit less likely to turn down something that already has working code, even if it's just a proof-of-concept.

Totally agree on this. I'm on it at this very moment :) And I'm telling you, even then, convincing managers is not easier than convincing any other investor.

"And I'm telling you, even then, convincing managers is not easier than convincing any other investor"

You should know your manager much better than you know your investor. If you know someone, you should be better equipped to share your vision with them. Then, three things can happen a) your vision is rejected because it has a flaw you did not see b) your vision is rejected because it does not match your manager's situation (you should put more effort in getting to know your manager's situation!) or c) your idea is accepted. Of course, (b) is really hard. Then again, most programmers I know don't evaluate their corporate structures and people as thoroughly as they evaluate code.

Re: Ask HN: How do you juggle time spent on learning vs. time building things?

#40
1) I schedule my time rigorously. There's dedicated time allowances for every single thing I want to do. If my time budget doesn't allow something that's important to me, I cancel or reschedule something else.

2) I take formal classes in my areas of weakness.

3) I schedule my time rigorously.

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