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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#291
post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

I think I might (for non-network referrals) respond with "my hourly rate is $XX". Has anyone done this? Has it worked? PS - I also try to add on a 30m review of /their/ code, but so far it hasn't worked. I still ask!

Snarky responses in interview processes like quoting an hourly rate might seem attractive but I urge you to avoid them. The best case is probably that it immediately ends the process but you get a moment's satisfaction. However you could easily be seen as unprofessional and that damage to your reputation could come back to bite you later when you're applying for something you really do want. If someone is asking too much just turn them down politely and move on. No need to burn bridges.

However asking to see some examples of their real code/documentation is a legitimate request IMHO and something I did in my later interviews when I was working as an employee. I'd usually bring it up at a second interview when we knew both sides were serious and they asked if there was anything I'd like to know more about. Nowhere ever thought it was an unreasonable request in my experience and some took it as a good sign that I was sincerely interested. Probably the majority of places actually did find something I could look at, though some refused and usually cited something like confidentiality or trade secrets. Of course the ones who showed me good code were more likely to get me to work for them than the ones who refused or showed me bad code.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. People with 10+ years, a good network and decent resume pop their head up above the parapet and get instantly mobbed with offers. They're on the market 2 weeks, tops. No-one good is going to do a takehome just so the hiring team can rub their beards and feel superior while they pick over the code. That approach worked a few years ago, in today's recruitment bear market you don't pick the candidates,…

> We're moving to 1-stage interviews, offer on the same day. Higher risk but we have no choice Anecdotally, I've seen people actually been put off by this. Perhaps make it 2 interviews just to not seem desperate. It's not my own reaction, but I could see why people might think "They're really desperate, there must be something wrong there"

It may seem odd, but I experienced this. I'm starting a new job in a few weeks and, while my path was definitely eased due to an internal referral, I got the job really easily, which makes me a little nervous, due to either the hiring situation or expectations.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter to this is not extra interviews but increasing the importance of the people in the interview. A one pass, 60 minute interview with the CEO and/or CTO on the call tells me a lot more about the kind of company. One of the reasons I went independent consultant/freelancer is because I no longer face hiring bullshit like multiple interview rounds. I don’t charge to discuss the problems, sign an NDA if need be,…

I never understood why people are so dogged on hiring - just get a senior consultant - pay 2-3x and save the equity. it's faster and in the end the expenses level out (cost of hiring, 401, insurance etc.) Make the contract with 1 months notice both ways and it's pretty much for all intent and purpose a hiree

based on term and employment conditions (ex: onsight for years) they run the real risk of retroactively being classified as an employee. The only way to avoid this is to hire a consultant who comes from another company... where they're typically an employee, so someone else solves the problem.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you get from a whiteboard/take home assignment that you can't get from a conversation where you grill them about their answers?

Conversations allow smooth talkers to run a snow job on you. Having a work sample test provides a best-in-class hiring filter.

Perhaps on you. I’ve never encountered someone where a 5 minute technical discussion told me less than a full day of interview would.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#295
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, at some point if someone wants to work at Google and can get a job at Google--especially if the name and/or the salary is what they really care about--it's probably in the best interest of a lot of companies to just move on.

I'm sure that's true but another point I was trying to make there was that IME even top tier companies exclude a significant proportion of good developers by having excessive hiring processes. The kind of applicant who could get hired by those companies doesn't have to put up with those processes and at least here in the UK the pay at even top tier companies with annoying hiring processes isn't so much better than ev…

In the US, there's probably a pretty significant delta between top SV big tech salaries and a lot of the rest. Of course, those companies probably exclude a lot of competent developers and other companies can offer other opportunities besides just salary that big tech can't (more interesting projects, less of a hiring gauntlet, smaller scale, etc.) But if someone is willing to and can get through the hiring gauntlet--and really cares about the comp--it's hard to compete.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#296

"Take-home technical assignment (~4h)" I've got 20 plus years of tech, I've been out of college since 1997 and you want to give a 4 hour homework assignment. If get you want to get a feel for someone's ability but this is more easily done by stating a problem during one of the interviews and asking the person "How would you approach this?" Listing for how they anticipate problems and tradeoffs.

would you like a take-home or would you like a whiteboard session? I need to have useful information that a candidate is more than a smooth talker.

would you like a take-home or would you like a whiteboard session?

"Not if you'd like me to work for you, no." -- An actually senior developer in this market

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. Assuming this is legal at all according to current employment contracts, it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll and more stuff to keep track for the employee's income tax.

> it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll

They're the ones giving take-home assignments.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#298

Post the salary range. It's 2022, you can't just say "Benefits and salary are good " That is absolutely meaningless. You're wanting ~6hrs investment (30 call, 1hr interview, and 4hr+ assignment) for an offer? NO thank you. Why the scare quotes around "DevOps"? Is it DevOps or not? These words do mean things and matter.

> Is it DevOps or not? These words do mean things and matter. I'm surprised at this comment, in my experience, that word has almost no meaning at all. It can mean anything from "Engineering teams are responsible for everything, including development and operations" to "We have a third DevOps silo inbetween our developer and operarions silos".

It does have, in my opinion, quite clear meaning as a term, otherwise it wouldn't exist as a term.

Obviously it means setting up & maintaining application-ecosystem infrastructure:

Servers/Containers/VMs, CICD, monitoring, logging, integration/production testing, permissions, and various automated jobs/workflows <-- that sort of stuff. So that developers can just focus on programming.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#299

I am going to add one thing that I haven't heard here. You probably need to raise the cash in your offer by a lot. Most mid-size companies think that they can get away with offering equity at a ridiculous valuation and attract people who aren't true believers. Most people aren't true believers in miscellaneous DevOps that doesn't involve a lot of code. I have spoken to a few series-C and D companies that wanted to gi…

PSA: For those who don't fully understand the second paragraph above, be sure to google 'liquidation preference' before you're next evaluating an offer that includes equity or options in a private company.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#300
post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

I just wrapped up a take home project. When I was told about it, I told the HM that I withdraw from processes that include a take home. They told me that they understood, but that this one really did only take an hour or two, and that they’d send it over to me anyway. All they asked was that I take a look, and if I completed it, they’d send me a $150 Amazon gift card. I took a look, and it really did seem straightfor…

I think I share your interpretation, plus it is possible to scope something small that's (gasp!) interesting. The last one I did was use the company's product to create something and then demo it to the team. In addition to a gift card is was (almost) fun.

IMO a (very small) take-home assignment is the least-worst of a lot of generally bad options. A pairing exercise focused on teamwork and communication (vs hardcore coding) is the only other option I even consider these days.

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