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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#291

Post by Emigre_ »

jameshart wrote: post #71
Nursie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year. Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summe…

I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market. For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build…

I’ve had a similar impression, I think. What kinds of developers, and relationships, if you don’t mind elaborating on your reply?... Thanks

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#292

Post by topkai22 »

For me (big tech senior), you'd have to get close to the money. I might take a 10% paycut, but probably not more than 20%. Equity can close the gap, but I can do risk based calculations, so it'll need to be very strong. I also have great benefits, a pretty good work life balance (more thant 40h a week, but when and how much I want. Most big tech Srs I know do- we've been doing this long enough to know how much we want to work.

What could attract me out, for at least a bit less money? * More say on product definition * Interesting problem space * Leadership that I believe is genuinely happy to have me on the team, and wants to support me. And that I personally like. * Team members that I like, including ones that I can mentor * Clear ability to grow, including increasing rewards with appropriate impact. * A culture that is a great fit

And you'd have to woo more than just a blind linkedIN inMail. People want to be wanted.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#293

Post by ska »

andreilys wrote: post #241
LanceH wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

It's a pretty standard thing (US) to start with for entry level jobs. What the GP is claiming that is that policies that: "everyone starts here with 2 weeks, you get a 3rd week after N years, a 4th after M" are kind of bs for senior employees. They have a point; this rarely applies to senior management, for example - and effectively you are asking people to take a major quality-of-life hit when changing jobs.

This can lead to conversations like: "You've asked for N weeks vacation but policy is strict everyone starts here with 2 weeks". "I can probably live with that for an extra X k/year." ... "We can do N weeks".

I think in tech 2 week is becoming rare though. More likely either longer, or so-called "unlimited" (which itself is nonsense).

The more weird thing I find in US corporate culture is a tendency to not take the vacation you are allotted. In some countries this is legally at least problematic, in the US it's sometimes a badge of honor.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#295

Post by rossdavidh »

I've done both perm and contract work (lately the latter, by my choice), and here's what I've seen.

1) some people prefer stability, they are the ones who will prefer "perm"; make sure you're offering actual stability. Frequent re-orgs, etc. will drive off the very people most likely to prefer permanent positions

2) there are good senior engineers who aren't into a lot of people time, who will prefer not to do contract because of the salesmanship that is inevitably involved. If you're requiring a lot of meetings, etc. you are driving off the "I just want to work" senior engineers who you might otherwise be able to keep.

3) offering interesting technical problems or attacking an important (to society) problem, is a non-salary method of attracting senior people who have probably had a job which lacked these in the past

4) by the time you're senior you have done a fair amount of slogging through bad code; a greenfield project (where you get to make your own architectural decisions) is one way to attract a senior engineer

5) by the time you are a senior engineer you have figured out that what matters most is your direct supervisor; make sure yours are a pleasure to work for.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#296

Post by marcus_holmes »

chartpath wrote: post #237
HumblyTossed wrote: post #87

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

18 years experience here. I have recently converted to startup employee (again), giving up a lot of money in the contract market exclusively because I am motivated by the business case and have a deep respect for one of the founders, who is an actual domain expert and proven leader from the industry our customers are in. What I find the most difficult, by far, is "coaching up". Coaching down and motivating junior and…

This is my pain at the moment. My co-founder is new to startup but seems to think that because I can code, I should just focus on that. I've been working in startups for >10 years now, have run Startup Weekends, and have a bloody MBA. Trying to coach him on what should be happening with the marketing funnel is proving impossible.

If I was contracting I would be counting the money while watching them mess it up with a wry grin on my face.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#297

Post by b20000 »

dochtman wrote: post #15

I don't know your context, but here are some thoughts on what I've seen/experienced: Allow remote work -- European rates are much lower than Silicon Valley rates even now, and I imagine the same might be true for other parts of the world. Flexible working hours -- as a parent with kids, my current contracting arrangement for about 25 hours per week works quite well, and it's unattractive to me to return to a regular…

companies in the US want people to be "local", that is why people from europe still move to the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#298

Post by LanceH »

ska wrote: post #293
andreilys wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

It's a pretty standard thing (US) to start with for entry level jobs. What the GP is claiming that is that policies that: "everyone starts here with 2 weeks, you get a 3rd week after N years, a 4th after M" are kind of bs for senior employees. They have a point; this rarely applies to senior management, for example - and effectively you are asking people to take a major quality-of-life hit when changing jobs. This ca…

Three weeks is becoming pretty normal. A lot of places like to combine that with holidays and say 25 days (standard US is 10 holidays).

At most small places where HR is flexible, the PTO package is highly negotiable and I usually leave that to last and tack on an extra week, as they know they want me by that point and it doesn't cost them anything extra.

The conversation does go like you describe at some places, but others are absolutely rigid. One place where I actually accepted an offer, they increased everyone's vacation after my negotiations (small company). That has to be the most goodwill I've had when joining a team of people I didn't know.

But you're right, I never say now. I price it all accordingly, so they can say no.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#299

Post by LanceH »

Nursie wrote: post #251
LanceH wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things I enjoy about contracting is that instead of watching all the videos on harassment and whatever, I usually just have to sign a code of conduct. Those corporate videos are soul crushing. I guess the exception was one quiz about bribery I had to take at IBM. It asked me what I would do if I were offered a cook to go with my lodgings where I was staying during an engagement. This woke me up to the poss…

Actually you raise a good point - I also did a short bribery and corruption self-driven training thing at IBM, and that one was at least interesting. The “Active Shooter” one at JPMC was somewhat sobering.

I would accept a cook, btw, if anyone out there is bribing :)

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#300

Post by b20000 »

philmcp wrote: post #256

Offer a 4 day week. I've been searching for a role which fits this description since I left Uni and I finally found one It amazes me that more companies don't offer this benefit (even for a 20% cut in salary!) when the demand is so high It annoyed me so much I decided to make a website listing Software jobs with a better work / life balance: https://4dayweek.io/

your site doesn't load in firefox on debian buster
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