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Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#291

Post by ethbro »

ownagefool wrote: post #115
jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)

> lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative

Not sure if the incentives are the same in the UK, but in the US, most lawyers retained in matters like this work for the client.

In that lawyers advise, the client decides, and then the lawyers attempt to realize the goal the client has chosen (if they decide to keep working for them).

Most people in the US seem to look at legal counsel as "Do what the lawyer says," when it's actually "listen to what the lawyer says, ask about alternatives, and then choose the course you want to take."

Or as I've heard it explained: a lawyer's default is to counsel the courses of action that will allow them to win a hypothetical jury trial two years from now.

When in reality, most things never get there, and some optimal courses of action for trial are antagonistic in a pre-trial context.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#292

Post by thayne »

jacquesm wrote: post #109
thayne wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find kneejerk advice to consult lawyers for anything that concerns the law frustrating for two reasons: 1. It never seems to be accompanied with advice on how to find the appropriate kind of lawyer. 2. It almost always seems to ignore the fact that lawyers are expensive. Sure, there are times when that cost is warranted, but I don't think it is right to ignore it. For example, in this case, it is probably only wort…

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

> If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor.

No, if I have a medical problem _that is serious enough that it is worth the cost_ I go to a doctor. I don't go to the doctor for every cold or headache I get. Granted the OP is actually a case that might be worth that cost, but I've seen similar advice for much smaller things. I mean, I've asked questions about IP for my hobby open source projects, from which I don't expect to ever get a penny, and been told to get a lawyer. Or in this case, say compensation was off the table, is keeping ownership of the project worth hundreds or thousands of dollars for consulting a lawyer? Maybe. Only the OP would know that. And even after consulting a lawyer it's hardly a sure thing.

I'm not saying you should take legal advice from forums. My problem is with the "Always always always talk to a lawyer." Maybe you have enough money to talk to a lawyer every time you have a legal question and see a doctor every time you have any kind of malady, but not everyone does.

And I guess part of my complaint is just that such an important service is so expensive. It leads to a situation where the well off can hire lawyers to consult them on things like employment contracts, but those with less money can't, which makes it easier to exploit them.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#293

Post by fblp »

bob33212 wrote: post #233
fblp wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice is absurd. OP: My employer wants IP I've created. I want to negotiate compensation for it. Your advice: Start by sending them a resignation letter. Negotiations are all about relationships and starting by triggering others fears of abandonment is not the way to collaborate to a mutually beneficial option. I would suggest that the OP asks the if the employer would be open to discussing what he wants "given…

In that case the employer is going to hear " I want more money because I think you owe it to me". It is very easy for the employer to respond with "We don't feel the same way because X,Y and Z reasons or we cannot afford to pay you for the work you did for free". Negotiations are about leverage. Having a good relationship with someone is great. But they are not going to give you a big chunk of money because the like…

Right, and that's where the negotiation begins. You'll be able to find a better outcome once you know what X, Y and Z are. Leverage in itself assumes that one party has to lose. But there are also negotatied outcomes where both parties are better off. For what it's worth, I'm an employer and although my employees have IP agreements I'd want them to feel real good if the business wanted their side project.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#294

Post by dang »

runninganyways wrote: post #178
iudqnolq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An out-of-the-box idea might be to find a paralegal on FIVERR and ask them to dig up resources to read up on. Ideas are a picodollar a dozen. Why don't you try this one and tell us how it works out? Or, at a minimum, find out if you could even theoretically hire a paralegal on Fiverr?

First, pico is doing all the heavy lifting there. You don't need the dozen. Second, what a nasty little comment you've constructed. Third, you've made quite a few assumptions that I have zero interest in discussing with you (see the previous paragraph).

Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? we ban accounts that do that, and eventually your main account as well.

If you'd please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended, we'd be grateful.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#295

Post by smt88 »

rodw wrote: post #270
smt88 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business) Yes. There are places where either by statute or by the employment contract, anything the employee creates belongs to the employer. The underlying concept is that the employer created an environment where the employee was able to learn and be inspired. I know person…

If you (or anyone reading this) can link to any examples of or details about this sort of thing I'd be interested in seeing it. Don't get me wrong - I believe you - I'm just curious about it and would like to learn more.

The example I know about wasn't a newsworthy thing, just something that happened to my ex's classmate. I think the sticking point was that the IP was in the field he was getting his degree in, even though it wasn't related to any of his research (or any of the other research at the school).

I tried to Google for some other examples, but (as usual) Google mangled my search into a completely unrelated topic.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#296

Post by smt88 »

demosito666 wrote: post #276
smt88 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business) Yes. There are places where either by statute or by the employment contract, anything the employee creates belongs to the employer. The underlying concept is that the employer created an environment where the employee was able to learn and be inspired. I know person…

This seems just crazy, is there really an example of this? Does this also mean that if a programmer will write a song at weekend, his employer will have the copyright? Because I see no difference.

> Does this also mean that if a programmer will write a song at weekend, his employer will have the copyright?

The example I knew about was something that could plausibly have been done using the university's resources, but it wasn't.

While it does seem crazy, a common legal practice is to create incredibly rigid, selfish policies and then decide later if it's worth enforcing them. I was often told as an undergrad that anything I did was partly owned by my school, but that I shouldn't worry about it because they'd never pursue me.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#297

Post by ksec »

koala_man wrote: post #30

>developed it on my own time but the product directly relates to what my employer does As much as I hate to say it, that doesn't sound like a side project. That just sounds like overtime.

Yes, that is how I see it as well.

If the company really want to act in good faith, as reading between the line I assume you believe they do, they would have opened with an offer or some sort of compensation.

Instead they flat out asking you to transfer your work over means they knew and has already calculated the consequences.

Sorry to be cynical, as others have point out go and talk to a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#298

Post by wolco »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #117
jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

> ...is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. Listening to doctors instead of carefully reading forums would have probably left me seriously crippled. Doctors hold no real liability, nor do they have any real expertise outside their (very narrow) problem domain. There is no substitute for doing your own research if you want something done right.

This has been my experience over the last two years. When things get limited to a preset problem that doesn't fit the reality. The system has no mechanism in place when things go outside of the norm or expected.

Finding expert doctors and relaying updated information to family doctors doesn't work too well either.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#299

Post by runninganyways »

yowlingcat wrote: post #222
runninganyways wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is the obvious answer. OP didn't need you to tell him to get a lawyer. If he had that kind of money he'd be talking to a lawyer not us. I mean I know you meant well and I know I probably sound like a negative jerk but yeah of course it's a legal issue and he should talk to a lawyer. It's like if someone has a stomach ache and they asked online what it might be and someone tells them they should see a doctor.…

Not only are you wrong, but you're being dramatic and deflecting criticism. People being "shitty" when you ask for legal advice online or not is a complete red herring because it is an inappropriate and dangerous substitution. Fiverr? Are you kidding? You can get a fairly cheap half hour consultation of some kind with many a good lawyer for a few hundred dollars AT MOST and it will not be a waste of time. There's onl…

It's pretty clear that you're in read-only mode. You think you know the only answer so what can I tell you.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#300

Post by wnkrshm »

ianai wrote: post #120
prox wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. The core is that OP created something of value, in his own time. So there should be a value exchange of some sort.

Unless he’s a salary employee. In that case, he’s technically always on the clock or could be argued to be so. If you want your time to yourself then stay an hourly employee.

A salaried position is usually for X hours per month though. An employer that can make you work 24/7 each day of the month is not an employer, they're an owner.
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