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Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

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Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#291
Yes it is awful.

How people manage to build applications given the festering pile of rubber bands, glue and fish heads that we call web development platforms these days is beyond me.

There was a time when even I could build a website. Then I stepped away for a few years to do other stuff and came back to witness in complete horror where things are now. Let's be frank, the tooling is abysmal.

I've been taking a look at Polymer, Dart and Flutter recently.

Looking at the goals of those projects I'd say that reading between the lines, even the likes of Google understand that something has to change.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#292
post #255
post #24

Yes. I feel like we're in the dark ages right now. JavaScript - Dynamically typed, does not scale what so ever. Code written in it becomes 'read only' very quickly. Impossible to refactor. CSS - Also becomes impossible to manage. Who knows if the class you wrote is or isn't being used in HTML or JavaScript somewhere. Same problem, read-only, it only gets bigger and more unmanageable. HTML - At the heart of it, the fo…

The web was conceived for hypertext and doesn't do a bad job of it. The actual problem is that people took something that was always intended for displaying (illustrated but mainly text) documents that happened to have clickable words that would display other documents, and tried to make it do desktop-style applications too. We've been hammering square pegs into round holes ever since. And the infuriating thing is we…

Is it really square pegs for round holes?

I don't think that the web as a mechanism for distributing applications would look much different even if it hadn't gone through the HTML stage. If not JS, it would have been Java applets. If not HTML, then some weird XML layout schema.

There might have been a time where the web as a platform for applications was beyond silly, but this is not htat time. The platform is decidedly for shipping applications as well as pages.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#293
post #120
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook, Google and Microsoft all use the web stack to run huge companies. And they throw huge amounts of resources at the web stack to do it. It might work for them, but I'm not sure that makes it powerful, performant, and manageable for those of us who aren't huge companies.

You probably do not have the complexity level of these companies either. To me js and css are kind of manageable, a bit the same way as python: use strongly enforced linters forbidding anything ambiguous, do not jump every other day in a new sexy bandwagon, and do not let one line of code commited in without an automated test running it on a ci machine. What I found harder to manage is the young FE devs themselves: f…

Your last paragraph describes my experience with web development exactly. Ironically I'm 22, but I've worked with people or talked to people online who want to use the "latest and greatest" for what could've been a simple CRUD app.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#294
With respect, at least part of your frustration comes from the "curse of the installed base."

Long-lived software with real users in any language running on any platform becomes complex, and picks up strange-looking appendages. Sometimes those appendages are nasty hacks, and sometimes they are well-built. But they are, in most cases, necessary to the proper functioning of the software, and responsible for its success with its users.

That's true of long-lived human work product in any discipline. Look at a municipal utility map sometime, and then consider that it is probably at least three decades out of date. That's why utilities send out "dig safe" guys to construction sites. That's why things go wrong in utility work after longtime engineers retire or die.

That being said, the capabilities in web browsers are definitely the utility company equivalent of of a pickup truck full of random bolts, pipes, wires, a shovel, a ladder, and a jackhammer. You can do many things badly with a web browser, and our ways of doing them badly have evolved over the past couple of decades.

I believe your frustration with aging web software is, in fact, a sign that web software has become generally useful to the population.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#295

> Am I missing something? Probably. Good folks to learn from. > Is it me resisting change? Only you can tell, but client side web development is fine, thanks :) > Is web programming really that bad? No, it's doing fine, thanks for asking. > Is it really just that I need a new mental paradigm? If you really want to take your time working with client side projects, then you need to relax a bit and just learn a bit more…

I don't get it either. Nothing in history has come close to the current web platform. There has never been a language/runtime/framework/system where you could have this much flexibility, that "installs" in literally seconds (from a cold cache, never having been there in the first place), and works on every platform under the sun (not just linux/windows, but mac, android, ios, windows phone, ubuntu phone, my TV, my car!).

I see people in this thread talking about how it takes them 10X longer to develop for the web than it did for a desktop system, and i'm just sitting here confused as for me it was the exact opposite. I remember having to setup a development environment to get a java swing application ready to start working on. I remember the goddamn readme I needed to write to ensure that the next developer working on my GTK+ project had the right environment, the right libraries, the right platform, and the right compiler. I remember having to find some bullshit bindings to a C library for my python project that really half-assed the implementation, but it's all I had because that C library is the "defacto standard" for what it does, so I need to just deal with it.

For me the web has been such a breath of fresh air. A package system that works so effortlessly that I don't need to spend an hour deciding if that package is worth the pain of setting up another virtualenv, I don't need to worry that this library only supports Java 6 while this other one only supports java 7 and I can't have both (even though I only need the Java 7 one on this project). I don't need to worry that the next version of Windows will break GTK and my project won't support that platform and there is nothing I can do about it.

I run `npm install`, and in a few minutes, every developer with node.js installed can compile, run, modify, and deploy my code. And when deployed, every person with a browser on the planet can run it in seconds. It's amazing.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#296

Technical: * Multiple browsers that respond to the same code slightly differently. * Multiple platforms that all need to be supported. * Countless different screen sizes to consider. * Standards that aren't supported across browsers and platforms (and different versions of each in use) * Hundreds of undifferentiated web frameworks that all claim to do the same basic task better than each other. * Thousands of ways to…

"Multiple browsers that respond to the same code slightly differently."

Web standards are at a peak level. It's never been better.

I blame the overuse of SPAs. They are far too prevalent to the point that they are becoming the default over static web-pages.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#297

With respect, at least part of your frustration comes from the "curse of the installed base." Long-lived software with real users in any language running on any platform becomes complex, and picks up strange-looking appendages. Sometimes those appendages are nasty hacks, and sometimes they are well-built. But they are, in most cases, necessary to the proper functioning of the software, and responsible for its success…

It comes back to that wonderful quote by Bjarne Stroustrup:

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses"

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#298
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO react is a big step backwards. Adding an abstraction layer almost never produces a better result, it just makes things more complicated.

I'm glad you added the qualifier "almost" because, even in low-level C, you're typically sitting on about 4 layers of abstraction: C -> ASM / byte code -> machine code -> primitive CPU operations

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#299

With respect, at least part of your frustration comes from the "curse of the installed base." Long-lived software with real users in any language running on any platform becomes complex, and picks up strange-looking appendages. Sometimes those appendages are nasty hacks, and sometimes they are well-built. But they are, in most cases, necessary to the proper functioning of the software, and responsible for its success…

Joel Spolsky (FogBugz, Stack Overflow, Trello) wrote this article half a generation ago. It's about not giving in to the temptation to start from scratch when your software is ugly. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#300
post #255
post #24

Yes. I feel like we're in the dark ages right now. JavaScript - Dynamically typed, does not scale what so ever. Code written in it becomes 'read only' very quickly. Impossible to refactor. CSS - Also becomes impossible to manage. Who knows if the class you wrote is or isn't being used in HTML or JavaScript somewhere. Same problem, read-only, it only gets bigger and more unmanageable. HTML - At the heart of it, the fo…

The web was conceived for hypertext and doesn't do a bad job of it. The actual problem is that people took something that was always intended for displaying (illustrated but mainly text) documents that happened to have clickable words that would display other documents, and tried to make it do desktop-style applications too. We've been hammering square pegs into round holes ever since. And the infuriating thing is we…

Oberon also used the model. There was even an Oberon-based, Javascript replacement for mobile code, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system)

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