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Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

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Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#281

Post by roel_v »

Hermel wrote: post #275
roel_v wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, no, also in Germany it's perfectly normal to have a lawyer consulting on business matters with potential big impacts.

Not to the same degree. The US spends a much higher share of GDP on lawyers than most other countries. What I find disgusting is the culture of hiring a lawyer to put as many traps as possible into a contract, which forces the other party to hire another lawyer to remove the traps again. This does not make anyone better off except for the lawyers. Healthy and lasting business relationships are built on trust. The rel…

"The relationship between McDonald's and Coca-Cola is based on a simple hand-shake."

...

Look there is no reasonable discourse possible with idiocy like this. If you think a sustainable business is possible without covering your legal grounds, I'm wondering if you'd be interested in this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale. Blanket statements like 'the US spends a much higher share of its GDP on lawyers' don't mean a thing without a proper understanding of the legal system, business culture etc. It is obvious from your postings in this thread you know nothing about what lawyers actually do for a business, in the US nor in Germany, and that your statements are based on what you see on TV and blind prejudices.

(disclaimers: I have a law degree but have never practiced. I'm not an American, yet I have spend amounts on lawyers the last years that you probably feel are obscene, and this in a country that is considered similar to Germany in its look on lawyers, and they were worth every penny, and then some. I have also paid dearly in the past for not doing things the formal legal way, including in Germany.)

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#282

Post by xerophtye »

levosmetalo wrote: post #244
6cxs2hd6 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question and many of the comments so far tend to focus on the CTO. I'd like to focus on your co-founder, the "CEO". If he wanted to start with a less-experienced technical person, and jettison them early on -- he could have hired an employee and paid them. Instead he co-founded with you, as a partner. He was happy to take your money -- you have skin in the game. He doesn't get to shoo you out the door now like a…

I agree with this point. The CEO does just what he was told to. I assume he's just an employee without ownership, and employees don't fire owners unless someone much stronger is behind them. Definitely lawyer up, that would be a first thing. Then, if you want to regain control about he company, consider CEO your enemy, not the CTO. Invent a reason and fire the CTO, if you can do it. Then, step up as CTO yourself, or…

Personally, i consider this bad advice. Fighting is never really a good thing. SO please don't start a civil war, all it will do is destroy the company. The whole vengeance thing is very counter productive. I'd say lawyer up to get compensation and not to take revenge. And then leave and find a place where you are more appreciated. perhaps focus your energies on something new , something productive

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#283

Post by levosmetalo »

xerophtye wrote: post #282
levosmetalo wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this point. The CEO does just what he was told to. I assume he's just an employee without ownership, and employees don't fire owners unless someone much stronger is behind them. Definitely lawyer up, that would be a first thing. Then, if you want to regain control about he company, consider CEO your enemy, not the CTO. Invent a reason and fire the CTO, if you can do it. Then, step up as CTO yourself, or…

Personally, i consider this bad advice. Fighting is never really a good thing. SO please don't start a civil war, all it will do is destroy the company. The whole vengeance thing is very counter productive. I'd say lawyer up to get compensation and not to take revenge . And then leave and find a place where you are more appreciated. perhaps focus your energies on something new , something productive

It depends. Is company worth fighting for? What would be your share if you keep your part of the slice? If that is bigger than compensation you would get, than it certainly is worth fighting for. It's not about vengeance, it's about founders own interests, even if that would make company worse off.

45% share of 100M$ worth company is still much more than 10% share of 200M$ worth company or 1M$ compensation. You are not fighting to optimize for the company success, you are fighting to optimize your own wealth. If the company gets destroyed, and you still manage to get more then what would be your compensation package, you are still better off then retreating. Why caring about the company that doesn't benefit you, you would certainly not enjoy the success of the company that squeezed you out.

So yes, lawyer up and fight if it's worth to you to fight for the control. Don't be emotional about he company and business. It's your weakness, and they are already playing on that.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#285

Post by matttheatheist »

Two ways to look a this problem:

Point of View 1:

Did you hire this CTO to make your company succeed? If so, then listen to his expertise and move the f* out of the way. Do not interfere with those who understand what they're doing. Ever.

Point of View 2:

What exactly does the other guy do? Business? What is that, exactly? Ordering pizza? And why can you not do the same thing? If you don't have a set role, then make one up.

Here's my $0.02 (Similar to POV 1):

In business, there is no room for emotions. You have to do what's right: Leave. If you lack the qualifications to contribute in a productive way, then find other people who can, and your company will have a higher likelihood of success. Just sit back, and relax. Make sure you walk away with a nice chunk of equity though, and you'll live a happy life.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#286

Post by rlucas »

webwright's comments are almost alone in having any real wisdom here, IMO. The nerd brigade of HN (a brigade which I know and love) is failing all over itself.

The truth is that equity in "startups" -- defined as that thing we do where we try to create massive equity value by compounding growth at astounding rates -- is something best held by people who are needed and wanted to work in the company on an ongoing basis.

Any other equity outside of the current exec team -- be it owned by departed founders or by old investors -- is strictly a deadweight loss. (for token amounts to advisors, service providers, partner firms, I would see that differently as its expected their greatest contributions lie ahead)

New money in will see a 50% absentee cofounder (or hell a 25 or even 15%) as rendering the company unfundable. And in any case very "hairy."

This semi-autistic ranting about how OP should lawyer up and tell the others to go to hell is insanely misguided. Most likely if a major shareholder is being eased out and wants to make a huge stink, the result is a dead company.

The sane and grow up thing to do is to talk to the cofounders and figure out who wants what, and if OP really is to leave, he should figure out how to maximize his value subject to a few considerations: 1. The odds he company can survive and thrive (e.g. Attract funding, motivate other execs), 2. The odds that if his deal is too rich he'll just med up inducing a need to engineer a cramdown in a future round, and 3. The reputational cost of being a petulant crazy pants vs being a soldier. Yes, this game is played more than once.

Oh yeah, DO lawyer up, but do so in order to achieve the above.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#287

Post by stretchwithme »

ceejayoz wrote: post #266
stretchwithme wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you write a contract designed to screw the other party, you run the risk of being discovered.

And when you're screwing someone who holds to the "no lawyers because you're supposed to trust your cofounders" approach that risk is generally greatly diminished.

That's true. Which is why you should trust...but verify.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#288

Post by xerophtye »

levosmetalo wrote: post #283
xerophtye wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, i consider this bad advice. Fighting is never really a good thing. SO please don't start a civil war, all it will do is destroy the company. The whole vengeance thing is very counter productive. I'd say lawyer up to get compensation and not to take revenge . And then leave and find a place where you are more appreciated. perhaps focus your energies on something new , something productive

It depends. Is company worth fighting for? What would be your share if you keep your part of the slice? If that is bigger than compensation you would get, than it certainly is worth fighting for. It's not about vengeance, it's about founders own interests, even if that would make company worse off. 45% share of 100M$ worth company is still much more than 10% share of 200M$ worth company or 1M$ compensation. You are n…

Well as someone here pointed out, the whole fighting thing is toxic. It even marks YOU for the rest of your career. You can't just go to everyone and say "he started it!". outsiders would see BOTH of you as dangerous, and would likely avoid working with you. So it's more of a suicide mission really

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#289

Post by jsun »

A lot of advice on lawyering up and fighting this tooth and nail, and gotta say, this is extremely childish and a terrible idea.

If you sue your company, you increase its chance to fail by an order of magnitude. If you lose, you can laugh as your former founders and friends struggle to recover to pre-lawsuit levels but probably fail. If you win you would've won worthless shares in a company that's shortly going to fail.

Be pragmatic. You even admitted yourself that you are not a great coder - be the bigger person and do what it takes to help the company succeed.

Oh and when you exit, negotiate for an automatic vest for 25-50% of your remaining unvested shares.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#290

Post by tptacek »

kbruner wrote: post #231

I'm confused about your talk of vesting. Founders don't vest, they create the stock and sell/give it to others with a dollar amount or vesting schedule. Are you a founder or an early stage employee?

Founders absolutely do vest. If your cofounder demands otherwise, run don't walk.
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