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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#281

Post by wavemode »

hunter2_ wrote: post #200
GTP wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we're discussing whose data it is the information about how much I pay you , even from a devi's advocate perspective, you can't do better than arguing that this data pertains to both of us. So we should share the property of that data somehow. I don't see how you could argue that that data would be solely the employer's data.

If I administer a survey, collect responses, and put them into a spreadsheet, is the data in that spreadsheet not mine despite the fact that it consists of things that other people told me? I can't share it without the permission of those surveyed, assuming I didn't promise not to?

A key distinction is that people need employment. People don't need to fill out surveys. That's why there are many things companies aren't allowed to require of their employees, that they are allowed to require of other parties.

So while, in many jurisdictions, it's fine for companies to sell data collected on their employees, and it could be argued that those employees consented to this data sharing by working there, one could also easily argue for an employee protection law that prevents companies from requiring their employees to consent to this.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#282

Post by danielmarkbruce »

Retric wrote: post #204
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do they arrive at the budgeted number? Lots of companies want to ensure they are paying a sufficiently high number to get sufficiently capable employees in a competitive market. While many (including me) find things like Pave gross, it's not a one way street, they can push wages up.

You’re thinking of the actual budget for a position not what a company could in theory budget. A small businesses owner who pays themselves whatever is left over after expenses doesn’t care about what other companies pay, the company only has so much money. Apple could increase salaries up to the point where they make zero profit, but the goal is profit maximization not salary maximization. It’s fundamentally the att…

Small business owners aren't the target market and are likely to not use such a product.

Hiring well is hard - it's not super obvious if you aren't paying enough or your company isn't desirable or what else is the cause of not seeing good candidates. While in theory you could solve that by wildly overpaying, in practice you have to be able to justify your decision to higher ups in most cases, and pointing to a tool that shows what you really need to pay to get good people can be very helpful. I still find it gross, but, there are practical situations where it will drive salaries higher.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#283

Post by duderific »

oblio wrote: post #274
Kon-Peki wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… and the usage? Most highly-paid people have no idea how much privilege this affords them. You wonder why so many businesses are nice to you? It’s because they’ve already looked you up and know you’ve got a high income and are a millionaire. Write a personal check for your next automobile? Sure thing, you can drive it off the lot a few minutes later. They won’t even bother cashing the check for a week or two. Try do…

> Write a personal check for your next automobile? Personal check? What year is this?!? :-)

I did this for my recent automobile purchase. It's very convenient from my perspective to simply write a check and hand it to them.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#284

Post by ecshafer »

pwillia7 wrote: post #152
yonran wrote: post #103

The FTC Guidelines for Collaborations Among Competitors https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/dealings... says it’s illegal to share “competitively sensitive variables”, not just any data. Some forms of data sharing such as industry averages may not be illegal, but more detailed data such as numbers of applicants or price elasticity that enable the companies to act together as if they were a monopoly pr…

> Under the Sherman Act, agreements among competitors to fix prices or wages, rig bids, or allocate customers, workers, or markets, are criminal violations. Other agreements such as exclusive contracts that reduce competition may also violate the Sherman Antitrust Act and are subject to civil enforcement.Dec 20, 2023 A good US.A. could probably argue this meets that bar. Didn't they just do something similar with the…

Op mentioned realpage, which is the company that does rent fixing as a service (RFAAS)

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#285

Post by rossdavidh »

So, I'm sure the format and medium is different, but companies HR depts have been sharing notes and checking on what the market compensation is (for any given job and experience level) since forever. IANAL, but this is not a new thing.

I've even known co-workers who said "I deserve more $$, I'm underpaid for my experience and job" and supervisor repeats this to HR, then HR checks on it, and a few days later says "true, here's a raise". This was in the 90's, btw. Not a new thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#287

Post by karaterobot »

hunter2_ wrote: post #163
hypeatei wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's widely understood and part of the job description of being a public servant. What's not widely understood is HR secretly selling your data while working at a private company.

> your data Is it yours though? The employer could probably argue that it's theirs. Devil's advocate: I think it's widely understood that entities can be transparent with their data if they choose, other than NDA scenarios.

Does my personal health information belong to my doctor? Not according to HIPAA, at least not in a way that gives the doctor control over selling it. While my pay is currently not protected by similar regulation, it seems like the kind of protection regulation similar to HIPAA could defensibly target.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#288

Post by blast »

amelius wrote: post #175
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #173

The overwhelming question I have when reading these responses is "don't you guys read salary survey data when you're looking for a new job, or at annual review time?"

But then we're not sharing other people's personal information.

Are they actually sharing personal information? From the OP it sounds like they're sharing aggregate data. (I've never heard of Pave.)

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#289

Post by vkou »

klingoff wrote: post #246
vkou wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can request it, but can't stop you if you do. You can also request them to do likewise, with similar recourse. A request is nothing without teeth behind it.

Teeth like employment at-will?

It's generally quite unlikely that sharing your salary is going to result in getting bitten by that. You'd need to do labour organization (or be completely surrounded by rats and snitches and other vermin at your workplace, who already have an axe to grind) to actually get blowback for this stuff.

Most of the taboo around it is cultural, because people here attach their self-worth to their paycheck.

You could also always do it anonymously or pseudonymously. You'd have almost no chances of retaliation in that case.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#290

Post by nowyoudont »

jasode wrote: post #118

Competitors making similar price adjustments or salary adjustments based on seeing each other's public announcements or sharing data is legal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion That's why it's "legal tacit collusion" when one leading law firm announces salary increases and other law firms immediately match it : https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/large-law-firms-... That type of salary matching ha…

Huh, this tacit collusion being legal thing is mind boggling.

The law firm example seems imperfect though. Publicly announcing that you’re raising salaries isn’t really the same as internally sharing that data and choosing to set the same salary based on that.

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