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Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#281

Post by murgindrag »

thayne wrote: post #72
batoure wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always always always talk to a lawyer. If your dog walker (at the peak of their career) friend was like “I need a website” you wouldn’t be like “learn JavaScript” you would say find a programmer. If I had 10 dollars for every time I had to spend weeks convincing an engineer friend to talk to an attorney and then when they finally did it got dealt with in 30 minutes... Lawyers are just “full stack law architects” do y…

I find kneejerk advice to consult lawyers for anything that concerns the law frustrating for two reasons: 1. It never seems to be accompanied with advice on how to find the appropriate kind of lawyer. 2. It almost always seems to ignore the fact that lawyers are expensive. Sure, there are times when that cost is warranted, but I don't think it is right to ignore it. For example, in this case, it is probably only wort…

You have no reason to trust me, as a random person on the Internet, but for this sort of issue (IP+employment law), this is an ideal lawyer:

https://www.lawson-weitzen.com/attorney/bauer

He gave me terrific advice on a similar issue many years back, and I've gone to him a few times since. I've never retained him: our conversations were always about knowing how to interpret employment contracts, understanding options, and coming up with a negotiation strategy. After those consults, I could go it myself.

A good lawyer won't drag you into litigation. Good lawyers are rare, but the goal should always be to appear professional and to preserve relationships. If you have the rights to your code, you should be able to maintain them without burning relationships with your job. If you don't, you should hand the rights over without a fight (or negotiate for rights, but understanding you'll need to compromise something in return). In either case, you'd like to keep working there, you'd like good references later, and you'd like your employer to stay in your network.

You can't do that unless you understand your legal rights, and unless you have an idea of what tactics you should take.

A good lawyer will run you $300-$600 for a conversation (1-2 hours). A bad lawyer will escalate to a conflict, and run you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Keep in mind law varies by jurisdiction. I don't know where OP is, so this recommendation may be moot. I've worked with many lawyers. I have no conflict-of-interest (my relationship with Bauer is limited to a small number of ~1-hour consults).

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#282

Post by murgindrag »

austhrow743 wrote: post #130
jacquesm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all that, the question is whether or not you want to get your way or roll over. If you want to roll over you can do so without consulting anybody, if you want to get your way you will need to figure out what your options are going forward and that will include talking to a lawyer.

Roll over isn't the only alternative to lawyer. OP could always just say "no" and see what happens. Maybe lawyers come in to play eventually, maybe they don't.

The reaction to "no" can be multiple:

* OP is in the wrong and employer can't afford to pursue further. OP loses a lot of reputation as word spreads.

* OP is in the wrong and employer can't afford to pursue now. Five years down the line, when Oracle acquires employer, OP is sued for five years of damages.

* OP is in the right, but employer's lawyer crafts a very intimidating and compelling legal letter. OP backs down, having blown the relationship with the lawyer, loses rights, and is fired two months later.

It's helpful to be able to say "no" with conviction if one is right, or not press an issue if one is wrong.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#283

Post by fierarul »

koala_man wrote: post #255
fierarul wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That definitely makes it an unsanctioned overtime project rather than something separate like a side project. Is it overtime if you were never paid for it? How does unpaid work have to be 'sanctioned'?

>Is it overtime if you were never paid for it? Sadly, for programmers in the US, overtime is essentially always unpaid. When you e.g. hear about game developers doing 80hr/week crunch time, they're not getting paid extra for that.

I get that, but 'unsanctioned overtime' sounds as if the company was robbed of something. Since they never paid for that 'overtime', how did it need to be sanctioned?

Going that route, maybe the company could pay for the work done on the project.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#284

Post by caseysoftware »

ownagefool wrote: post #115
jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)

It's not "lawyering up" but understanding the options available to you, your rights in the situation, and the potential consequences of all of it. You never even have to tell anyone that you spoke to an attorney.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#285

Post by murgindrag »

reynard_le_faux wrote: post #119
jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

So we should take advice to get a lawyer from a forum, but not take advice not to get a lawyer from a forum?

It's sometimes okay to get legal advice from a forum, but in this context, someone needs to review:

1) The employment agreement 2) Understand the degree to which the specific project overlaps with the employer's business 3) Etc.

That takes a conversation you don't want to have online.

But yes, I definitely to seek legal advice from forums, Nolo books, and similar. Self-serve law is not a bad idea in most cases, despite advice to the contrary. Just not in THIS case.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#286

Post by murgindrag »

bdowling wrote: post #50
runninganyways wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is the obvious answer. OP didn't need you to tell him to get a lawyer. If he had that kind of money he'd be talking to a lawyer not us. I mean I know you meant well and I know I probably sound like a negative jerk but yeah of course it's a legal issue and he should talk to a lawyer. It's like if someone has a stomach ache and they asked online what it might be and someone tells them they should see a doctor.…

> If he had that kind of money he'd be talking to a lawyer not us. He, and you, may not know that you do not always need money up front to engage the services of a lawyer. Many lawyers extend credit to their clients or allow clients to condition their fee on a successful outcome (a contingent fee). Depending on the desired outcome in this case, such an arrangement may be easy. For example, if OP wants to arrange a sa…

(1) Few good lawyers in this space give free initial consults.

(2) Contingency isn't all too helpful unless you definitely go for litigation. OP definitely shouldn't go for litigation here.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#287

Post by detaro »

fierarul wrote: post #157
onion2k wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple that with the point that; In hindsight, I also made some mistakes in how I went about evangelizing it. It sounds like the author implied the company actually had something to do with whatever it is. That definitely makes it an unsanctioned overtime project rather than something separate like a side project.

> That definitely makes it an unsanctioned overtime project rather than something separate like a side project. Is it overtime if you were never paid for it? How does unpaid work have to be 'sanctioned'?

I don't think it really applies to the side-project rights case, but there's reasons to control overtime and require permission for it: Trying to ensure lower management/peer/customer pressure don't cause people to overwork themselves, if people work more on additional projects they're not asked to do they might be less effective at the main work, in some places (probably not the US) it's a legal risk. My employer in Germany has such rules, although I'm not sure how strictly they're enforced.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#289

Post by ownagefool »

aj7 wrote: post #198
ownagefool wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US maybe. In the UK, most of my lawyer friends would tell you that lawyering up is the last course of action you want to take, as it tends to make issues more complicated, expensive and combative, though you might want to be careful what you admit / agree to. My wifes a solicitor. :)

Lawyering up is different than having a lawyer explain what the law says to you.

I mean you're right, but just stating your position usually actually makes this sort of stuff go away before anyone involves a lawyer, regardless of what the law (or precedence, as tends to be more important in the UK) suggests.

For the record, I've used solicitors before and it was a ball-ache. The first thing they tell you is the judges want you to have at least made an attempt at discourse before you can go to court.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#290

Post by inimino »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #117
jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. If you have a legal problem, you go to a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer you might as well roll over right now because that will be the end game. The idea that some advice given in an online forum would reduce the need for finding a lawyer is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. You have no idea what the qualifications/experience/jurisdictions are of the…

> ...is akin to taking medical advice from a forum. Listening to doctors instead of carefully reading forums would have probably left me seriously crippled. Doctors hold no real liability, nor do they have any real expertise outside their (very narrow) problem domain. There is no substitute for doing your own research if you want something done right.

And yet, if your arm was broken, I bet you'd see a doctor. An IP disagreement with an employer is an acute, not a chronic condition. When you don't have years to acquire the knowledge yourself, you go talk to someone who already has.
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