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Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

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Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#271
post #29

It seems that they go a few directions: The most common seems to be to try and generalize, because relearning most of your job skills every few years starts to get annoying the 20th time you've had to do it. It's different when you are younger and everything is new, you just chalk up a major tooling change as just something else to learn. But when the next hot platform or architecture or whatever comes out you get ti…

I think you forgot a common career-path for the middling developer who has dropped off the back of the skills-wave - becoming a QA/Test engineer. It's not for everyone but I have met a lot of these guys over the years. They're always keen to tell you 'I used to be a developer'. I assume there is a pay-cut involved, but you do get to stay employed.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#272
post #199
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a little worried about the plateau, because I am 30 and have a fairly high salary as it is. I suppose on one hand it's good to know that perhaps the plateau isn't as serious a problem as I thought it was, since there's a little bit of rumbling pressure for me to start that journey to management (which, to be honest, I don't know if I'm a good fit for since I'm not exactly a "people person")

I really don't understand why a plateau is such a bad thing when you're already paid a high salary. It's a strange culture that you have to have a raise every single year (beyond inflation).

Kids are expensive. They become more expensive as they age.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#273
post #33

I'm curious to hear the answer to these questions from a woman's perspective. I met a few lady engineers through IEEE involvement in university who were further along in their careers, but I haven't met very many other lady devs over the age of 35.

My experience has been that many women drop out of development in their late 20's/early 30's, often to have a family. Of those that do come back, many go into a non-development career track including management, support, testing and tech documentation. Many want a part-time role which doesn't really work well with development.

At one point I had two managers, both women in their late 40s, and they used to time-share the one job. One worked Mon-Wed, and the other Wed-Fri.

I do know one female developer who has worked non-stop and is now in her mid-30s, and shows no signs of dropping off that. But she has no kids.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#274
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm at an inflection point these days on whether I want to push forward on the management path or go for the third path, as you mentioned above. FWIW, the few folks I know who tried to stay on purely technical paths ended up regretting it many years later. While the ones who went into management merely lamented the loss of their hard earned technical skills. Anecdotal, and I know there are lots of people on HN with…

> FWIW, the few folks I know who tried to stay on purely technical paths ended up regretting it many years later. Why?

Big companies try to have career paths for technical people. They claim "Distinguished Engineer" is the equivalent of a VP. However, it's really hard to get promoted to the few coveted DE positions, whereas a fresh batch of VPs are anointed every Monday.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#275
post #106

I'm 60+. I've been coding my whole career and I'm still coding. Never hit a plateau in pay, but nonetheless, I've found the best way to ratchet up is to change jobs which has been sad, but true - I've left some pretty decent jobs because somebody else was willing to pay more. This has been true in every decade of my career. There's been a constant push towards management that I've always resisted. People I've known w…

Yeah I have to agree - I'm in my mid-50s and this is my experience - I've changed what I do roughly every decade or so - compilers, chip design, satellite protocols, embedded everything, board design, all round kernel hack - keeping your skills fresh is very important, it stops you getting burned out and bored

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just throwing this out there: if there's a problem with developer salaries being capped at $300K, think of how hard it is for all the families who are making the U.S. median household income of $53K/year, or hell, the Santa Clara County median income of $45K/year. I understand that everybody wants more money - hell, I want more money too. But a lot of that is because everybody wants to be in the top 1% of nice neighb…

Sounds great, can you share what ]helped you become a top earner?

That a serious question or are you making a point? It's often hard to tell on the Internet...

Edit: Oh, I see - you've confused me with the person way up-thread with the $300K income, I'm not the same poster as he. I don't like to reveal my income on the Internet, but I'd describe it as "enough", so, to answer your question:

1.) Be alert to pure, dumb luck when it happens, and willing to take advantage of it - including dropping previous plans - when appropriate. I thought I would always work in small companies or startups, but I applied to Google in the depths of the 2008 recession and somehow was accepted, so I figured I'd give it a try. I've been there 5 years, with a fairly generous option grant, and the stock price has quadrupled in that time.

2.) Always hone your skills so that when an opportunity arises, you can pounce. I learned a lot of Javascript in my previous startup, and in 2008 (and now), that was the hot skill that everybody wanted. Learn things even if you don't know they'll be useful, particularly things outside of your comfort zone; you never can tell what connection will be important in the future.

3.) Be curious about the world around you, and in particular, about what the people around you are doing. Every single job I've had, I've gotten through my network. In some cases, those connections were several years old, but I reached out and asked them what they were up to and it turned out what they were up to needed people.

4.) Don't be afraid to leave when you've outgrown a place.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#277
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just throwing this out there: if there's a problem with developer salaries being capped at $300K, think of how hard it is for all the families who are making the U.S. median household income of $53K/year, or hell, the Santa Clara County median income of $45K/year. I understand that everybody wants more money - hell, I want more money too. But a lot of that is because everybody wants to be in the top 1% of nice neighb…

Point is don't be lulled into a false sense of security. Also, these things drive observable behaviour today. It's not a question of passing judgement on it (or not).

I don't really disagree, but neither do you want money to feed a sense of insecurity. You want to rationally pursue means that maximize your take-home income and wealth, but usually if you get emotionally attached to money you a.) will be a lot worse at rationally pursuing lucrative opportunities and b.) are in for an unhappy life.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#279
I'm in my 40s and have been designing and building software for money since the early 90s (and coding since the 70s). I remember asking these same questions at some point, while watching older developers lose their mojo (often ending up in management). I worried that I would end up like those soulless managers and burnt out architects. I didn't. Not yet, at least.

> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence? I know this isn't the case at some companies (e.g. Google), but is it rare or common to progress as an individual contributor?

You will always have more influence as a VP, Director, or general board member. Architects and team leads can be part of the management group, but actively avoiding or despising it is alienating those who carry financial responsibility for the company. Once you have the ability to make long term and rational architectural decisions, you will want to be able to use that knowledge to change things. Making things happen outside of the management structure requires a great deal more force than from within.

But, you can retain your technical edge while in management (at many companies at least). I am an architect and CTO at one company and a board member at two other companies. I also code almost every day, as I believe that software design and architecture cannot exist without understanding how things work today.

That said, you don't have to go the management route. I do suggest at least making peace with management and managing, as it is a valuable tool for getting things done when mad coding and design skill is not enough.

As for pay ...

> Is there a plateau in pay? Is there a drop in pay switching jobs after a certain number of years experience because places are looking for 5+ instead of 20+?

Yes, pay rates tend to plateau if you're not part of the management or directorship. There are exceptions to this, including a number of smarter employers or if you change jobs regularly. You can also start your own company, but that requires both management and business savvy, and adds some risk.

I have only changed employers a few times as I've been lucky to really enjoy my teams, but I do own a consultancy as well (which allows me to adjust for any ceiling at my day job).

> Are older devs not looking for new jobs because they have families and want more stability/are focussed elsewhere?

Many older developers end up in management, owning companies, or as architects (who gravitate toward larger, older companies). Most older devs prefer stability, but not all.

> Is becoming a specialist rather than a generalist the answer?

The answer to what? Specializing will allow you to do more of something you want to do. Generalists often do better with entrepreneurship and general opportunity. You want to make more money? Management and ownership are great routes for that, and generalists excel in those roles (in my experience).

> And lastly: if you're in your late 30s, 40s, 50s, what are you doing at your job? What are the older people in your workplace doing?

I spend about half of my time designing systems and interfaces (from APIs to UIs). I spend half my time prototyping and setting up projects for my teams. I spend the last half of my time making sure it gets done properly. I still have more ideas for products than time, and I still pick up several new tools a year. I'm always learning, and always improving my own methodologies (as well as my team's). I still love what I do.

I also work with a software architect who is in his late 60s who is still both passionate and coding daily. He avoided management and does not often regret it, and has coded everything from OS subsystems (in the 60s) to iOS and web things today. His rate of learning has slowed down appreciably, but his vast knowledge and experience more than makes up for it. He was the first architect I met that still loved what he did (when he was in his early 50s).

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much covers it. If all you do is 'write code' then you have to be prepared to start 'write the same code in a new "paradigm" several times.' Once that starts you'll do one of two things, either get bitter and grouchy and become unemployable as a coder (trust me when I say that nobody likes working with someone constantly whining about how they already wrote this code 5, 10, 15 years ago), or you will change th…

>As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau. Mine seems to keep climbing. I'm hearing reports of >$300k, and have received an offer in that range myself (counting signing bonuses and stock grants). Granted my pay might plateau there , but honestly that's enough money to keep me happy without having to see it go up every year. I'm a total generalist, but I also have a few areas where I would qualify as a specialist;…

Making an annual salary + bonus of $300K at a mobile games studio, in Boulder CO is pretty impressive. Counting stock though is always a bit dicey, especially if you coded through the 90's :-).
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