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Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

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Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had a professor who wat was at big company. Forget which. IBM came in with a list of patents that were being violated. Professor went through the list and managed to document fully how each one didn’t apply to company. One of which was for pythagorean theorem. They had another meeting to go over it with IBM to show results. Not impressed IBM said fine you don’t violate those. We have a hundred thousand more patents.…

I read that story quite some time ago. The company was Sun Microsystems. Edit: A link to that story: https://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/044.html

Oh nice. I was thinking sun. But wasn’t sure.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#273

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

No, you better call Saul! In all seriousness I hope you can deal with this lawsuit

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it was probably more expensive (and risky) to go to court and spend a ton of money on lawyers than just pay the license and be done with it.

But if the licence is that cheap, they're showing their hand, the difference between a protection scheme and IP protection here is incredibly murky. Even if you didn't aim to help others not be bullied around, going for a settlement seems the smarter option.

You are right and it probably wasn’t cheap, but at least comparable to the cost of going to court. If you have two options that cost around the same, but one will give you an immediate out, it’s likely you want to take the immediate out rather than taking additional risk for a what if.

On a side note, I know someone who’s company got sued, then when the lawyers came to the table to negotiate, they showed him a list of other companies that had previously settled with them and the amounts they had settled for. He said the lawyers had clearly done their homework in terms of estimating how much it would cost the company to go to court and the proposed settlement amount was within 10-15% of that estimate. He decided to settle.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the entire patent system is simply dissolved. Patents are an artificial restriction on free trade that prevents competition and put profits in the pockets of the greedy undeserving.

But don't you believe it encourages innovation ? That's the main argument in favor of patents

I think it stalls more innovation than it encourages, and generally prevents new entry into a technology space, because the existing players have all the patents that a new player would need to get started. The fewer players you have in a technology space, the less innovation there will be, because “necessity is the mother of invention” and people don’t generally start working on an idea unless they are exposed to the problems of that field. In theory, a non-player could start a research shop and then sell the results of their research in the form of a patent, and this happens sometimes, but just as often the industry decides they don’t want to pay, and leaves the idea dead until the patent expires.

My pet example is the mosquito laser. They invented it at MIT, and showed that it could effectively shoot down mosquitos that pass between posts. The hardware costs were a bit high, but would come down drastically if someone mass-produced custom chips for it. But, the overall idea is patented, and currently held by a “think tank” licensing company, and no product has emerged. I can only assume that it is because their licensing demands are too high. I’d be happy to start my own company to build mosquito lasers, but I’m sure that their licensing costs would kill any profit from it, so I don’t. And so the world is left with no mosquito lasers for more than a decade.

If you want another extreme example, the 3D printer craze was kicked off by the expiration of a patent on the FDM process: https://www.fabbaloo.com/blog/2020/3/2/the-challenge-and-opp... The innovation in the 3D printer space probably lost 10 years due to that patent.

One possible solution to the problem, without throwing out the entire patent system, would be to create a mandatory licensing system with fixed rates. For example, if you know that your design is about 60% patented, and there is a law that says 20% of your profits have to be given to the patent holder, then you might be able to go ahead and make the product and still turn a reasonable profit. The patent holders would get paid something and the products would continue being innovated without these stupid wait-17-years delays. Also it would put less severe stake on the patents, so people could just argue out the details in court about who gets how much money without worrying that it was going to bankrupt a company or kill the product line.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#276
post #33

I've been through similar situations. The "find a lawyer" comments are less than helpful, since you probably don't know where to begin and most lawyers will happily take your money without necessarily having an expedient path to resolution for a small one-person company. So here's what you do: Write to each of your competitors, explain the situation and ask for a referral to their lawyers. You'd be surprised how many…

This is the modern equivalent of a laywer chasing an Ambulance down the street.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#277
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but it costs 20k

It's more than that. The fee to request the IPR is $19,000, plus $375 for each claim in excess of 20. If the USPTO decides to institute the IPR, the post-institution fee is $22,500, plus $750 for each claim in excess of 20. [0] Attorney's fees will be far more than these amounts. [0] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=37y1.0.1.3.12#se...

Funny how Obama pushed this as a good thing for small inventors.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#278
This happened to me as well. I wanted to share how we dealt with it was it was different from most comments here and may be useful to you. We paid. My company was sued along with few multi-billion dollar companies. I only found out because one of their lawyers called me as they were planning to fight back and wanted to check whether I wanted to join forces.

I found a good patent attorney and explained the situation. After learning that we were a small company with less that $500K revenue that year, bootstrapped and only had couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, he suggested that I talked to the patent trolls lawyers by myself without a lawyer first. His rational was that they were not really after us as we were small, and once they learned that, they would either drop it or ask for a small amount to settle.

I followed his advice and had a call with them and it went exactly as he predicted. Upon learning that our US revenue was only few hundred thousand dollars, they asked $30K to settle and sent me an agreement. He reviewed the agreement for us, and recommended that we settle. We did. It was a ridiculous patent yet all of the companies that were sued settled as well. The experience was traumatic and was one the main reasons I decided to raise money from investors later. I slept better knowing that we had the funds to fight lawsuits if need be. Patent lawyer was happy to take the case if we needed to, but warned us about how expensive it would be.

Given that you're a single person company, you're likely small fish for patent troll. The best option for you may be to let them know that and see what they do. Best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is taking anything for free? Do you think people go read through the patent database to get product ideas? If I create a product and bring it to market without any knowledge of your patent, why should I pay you just because you invented it earlier and then sat on it?

It's not _just_ because you invented it earlier, you also have to disclose it in a way that makes it workable. The disclosure is supposed to drive innovation and use of innovations; that's the patent deal, the monopoly is "paid" for with disclosure. Aside, in the UK there's compulsory licensing (UKPA Section 48x to prevent people from inventing stuff and refusing to license it (at reasonable terms), too.

> “The disclosure is supposed to drive innovation”

And that is the grand joke of the patent system.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#280
post #50

As someone who has dealt with this I suggest you figure out a way to avoid the patent. Read through the claims, figure out what combination of features they have patented and then change your product to avoid those features in that combination. You likely can either do something more advanced or something less advanced -- if you have the choice do the more advanced solution as you are then likely pushing your product…

Absolutely do not take any of this advice of the parent. I am an IP litigator. I kill patents as my day job. The parent’s advice assumes the players are reasonable people acting in good faith. In the case of patent trolls, they are often not acting in good faith. Most of the allegations are not good faith interpretations of the patent. There is no “perception of infringement” to begin with. They just want a quick pay…

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